1 00:00:02,001 --> 00:00:04,505 [♪ soft introspective music plays] 2 00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:12,471 [Dr. Rose] I would like to ask about... 3 00:00:13,972 --> 00:00:17,100 what happened in the family that brought you to therapy. 4 00:00:17,184 --> 00:00:20,145 HULU PRESENTS 5 00:00:24,942 --> 00:00:27,528 [Sophia "Arguelles" Maddox] Well, I don't know, I come from a murderer. 6 00:00:28,654 --> 00:00:30,614 ♪♪ 7 00:00:32,908 --> 00:00:34,618 You know, who... 8 00:00:36,286 --> 00:00:38,455 Who the hell would accept me? 9 00:00:43,210 --> 00:00:45,754 Hey, what else do you need to know? 10 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,178 Maybe the best way to start this It's talking about my father. 11 00:00:56,014 --> 00:00:59,977 My dad... was a great father. 12 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:05,357 Are you my baby? Are you my baby? 13 00:01:06,441 --> 00:01:08,443 [Sophia] When I was little, I felt that he and I 14 00:01:08,527 --> 00:01:11,029 we were the only ones two people who existed. 15 00:01:11,113 --> 00:01:13,198 It's flying through the air! 16 00:01:14,199 --> 00:01:16,660 [Sophia] Everyone else They lived in our world. 17 00:01:17,578 --> 00:01:19,079 My parents were divorced, 18 00:01:19,162 --> 00:01:21,540 but my father took care of me half the time. 19 00:01:21,623 --> 00:01:23,584 [Daniel Arguelles] Time to get dressed for school. 20 00:01:24,585 --> 00:01:27,254 [Sophia] Your greatest gift to me It was his imagination. 21 00:01:28,297 --> 00:01:30,591 He was a writer, actor and director. 22 00:01:30,674 --> 00:01:32,509 Are you kidding? The president will be there. 23 00:01:33,010 --> 00:01:35,554 [Sophia] But never He was successful as a filmmaker. 24 00:01:36,722 --> 00:01:37,848 Until one day... 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:40,601 he did it. 26 00:01:40,684 --> 00:01:42,144 [Daniel] Action. 27 00:01:42,227 --> 00:01:44,062 [screaming] 28 00:01:44,563 --> 00:01:47,107 [Sophia] He filmed every second of my life. 29 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:49,234 ♪♪ 30 00:01:49,318 --> 00:01:52,237 There was nothing that we would not do for the other. 31 00:01:52,321 --> 00:01:56,408 [Sophia girl] Can I, uh, videotape the world? 32 00:01:57,618 --> 00:01:59,369 [Daniel] That's what you're doing now. 33 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:03,874 You are videotaping the world. 34 00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:07,002 [Sophia girl] Oh, you're going to like this. 35 00:02:08,337 --> 00:02:10,297 [traffic bustle] 36 00:02:12,257 --> 00:02:13,925 And now I'm that cliché from Los Angeles 37 00:02:14,009 --> 00:02:17,846 of the actress in trouble, nanny, aspiring filmmaker. 38 00:02:20,932 --> 00:02:24,853 I have a lot of jobs and 50 dollars in the bank. 39 00:02:26,104 --> 00:02:28,565 [♪ sombre piano music plays] 40 00:02:30,734 --> 00:02:34,738 And then my dad and I We received some very bad news. 41 00:02:34,821 --> 00:02:36,865 [♪ music continues] 42 00:02:39,201 --> 00:02:40,827 Destroying our worlds. 43 00:02:43,705 --> 00:02:45,707 [team chatting indistinctly] 44 00:02:45,791 --> 00:02:46,833 -Bobby, are you okay? -Yeah. 45 00:02:46,917 --> 00:02:47,918 Okay, great. 46 00:02:48,001 --> 00:02:50,045 This is Daniel's interview. 47 00:02:50,128 --> 00:02:51,963 [Sophia] I'm terrified. 48 00:02:54,091 --> 00:02:56,510 ♪♪ 49 00:02:56,593 --> 00:02:58,345 [Sophia] Is this a little strange to you? 50 00:02:58,428 --> 00:02:59,429 [Daniel] [laughing] Yes. 51 00:02:59,513 --> 00:03:01,682 [Sophia] But... this is my story. 52 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:04,184 DANIEL ARGUELLES FATHER 53 00:03:04,267 --> 00:03:06,895 So this all started because you never knew your father. 54 00:03:06,978 --> 00:03:08,814 Yes, yes. 55 00:03:08,897 --> 00:03:10,691 [♪ soft music plays] 56 00:03:10,774 --> 00:03:15,237 As a child, I always had suspicions of my father. 57 00:03:15,737 --> 00:03:18,990 Hey, he was Hispanic, of course, with the last name Arguelles. 58 00:03:19,074 --> 00:03:22,035 And I put my arm over his 59 00:03:22,119 --> 00:03:24,204 and said, "Hey, how is it?" that I am white and you are dark? 60 00:03:25,372 --> 00:03:30,001 So when I was 21 years old, I insisted that my mother 61 00:03:30,502 --> 00:03:32,295 Tell me if Jim was my real father. 62 00:03:32,754 --> 00:03:34,297 [Sophia] And what did she say? 63 00:03:34,381 --> 00:03:37,050 She confessed: "No, I wasn't." 64 00:03:37,134 --> 00:03:40,303 And I said, "Well, who's my dad?" 65 00:03:40,929 --> 00:03:42,472 She said, "I really don't know." 66 00:03:43,849 --> 00:03:48,562 When I was about 18 or 19 years old In Hollywood, everyone told me: 67 00:03:48,645 --> 00:03:51,064 "Wow, you look like a young Elvis." 68 00:03:51,148 --> 00:03:55,193 I like to sing, I like to dance, I like acting. 69 00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:58,071 [imitating Elvis Presley] How are you doing? That's right, it's me, 70 00:03:58,155 --> 00:03:59,239 Elvis Presley. 71 00:03:59,322 --> 00:04:00,615 I'm producing my new album, 72 00:04:00,699 --> 00:04:01,950 and it's called Loving You. 73 00:04:02,033 --> 00:04:04,911 You did a lot of imitations of Elvis at home. 74 00:04:04,995 --> 00:04:06,872 [normal] Yes, I was going there Like I'm Elvis, you know? 75 00:04:06,955 --> 00:04:08,081 I have to be Elvis, right? 76 00:04:10,167 --> 00:04:12,502 You signed up for Ancestry to find your father. 77 00:04:12,586 --> 00:04:15,756 And it wasn't until seven years later that you found a half brother. 78 00:04:15,839 --> 00:04:17,549 [inhales] Right. 79 00:04:17,632 --> 00:04:21,887 He just said: "Hi, uh, I'm Mike, and we agree." 80 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:24,347 And I said, “Oh, brothers, wow. 81 00:04:24,431 --> 00:04:26,850 Well then you know Who's your dad, maybe?" 82 00:04:26,933 --> 00:04:28,477 "Yes, I know who it is." 83 00:04:30,395 --> 00:04:32,314 [Sophia] And who is your dad? 84 00:04:33,023 --> 00:04:34,191 [Daniel] You know. 85 00:04:34,274 --> 00:04:35,650 [Sophia] Can you say it for me? 86 00:04:35,734 --> 00:04:36,860 Charles Manson. 87 00:04:40,614 --> 00:04:41,865 [Sophia sobs] 88 00:04:44,743 --> 00:04:47,496 ♪♪ 89 00:05:01,051 --> 00:05:02,636 [♪ "My World" plays by Charles Manson] 90 00:05:02,719 --> 00:05:06,640 ♪ My world is a sad one ♪ 91 00:05:08,141 --> 00:05:11,853 ♪ I often wondered if there is guilt ♪ 92 00:05:12,813 --> 00:05:14,439 ♪ What a fool ♪ 93 00:05:14,523 --> 00:05:17,192 -♪ In a crazy, crazy world ♪ -[Sophia] Hello Peppa. Tsk, tsk, tsk. 94 00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:18,860 [clicking tongue] 95 00:05:19,486 --> 00:05:21,404 Did you have a good day? 96 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:23,740 [♪ song continues in background] 97 00:05:23,824 --> 00:05:27,369 Charles Manson for me, He was just this cult leader. 98 00:05:27,452 --> 00:05:30,914 and this murderer of whom I had read on Wikipedia. 99 00:05:31,832 --> 00:05:33,583 When I discovered who was my grandfather, 100 00:05:33,667 --> 00:05:35,085 I didn't know what it looked like... 101 00:05:37,337 --> 00:05:40,257 so I decided to consult "Charles Manson" on YouTube. 102 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:43,677 [reporter 1] Breaking news, Charles Manson, 103 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,971 the sectarian leader who led a series of murders 104 00:05:46,054 --> 00:05:48,139 In the 1960s he is dead. 105 00:05:48,223 --> 00:05:49,891 [reporter 2] With a swastika on his forehead 106 00:05:49,975 --> 00:05:51,601 and wild eyes of violence, 107 00:05:51,685 --> 00:05:54,145 Charles Manson was the face of evil. 108 00:05:54,229 --> 00:05:57,107 Maybe it was that look in the eyes of Charles Manson 109 00:05:57,190 --> 00:05:59,609 what convinced people to kill in his name. 110 00:05:59,693 --> 00:06:03,530 [reporter 3] Once called the most dangerous man in the nation. 111 00:06:03,613 --> 00:06:06,825 forty years later and the fascination has not disappeared. 112 00:06:06,908 --> 00:06:09,202 People are still interested in Charles Manson. 113 00:06:09,286 --> 00:06:11,788 20 years ago today, that the nation was stunned 114 00:06:11,872 --> 00:06:14,666 for one of the most brutal massacres in history. 115 00:06:14,749 --> 00:06:16,626 [reporter 4] They called him insane, mafia, 116 00:06:16,710 --> 00:06:18,086 monster and murderer. 117 00:06:18,169 --> 00:06:21,965 The center of a type of horrible fascination that will not die. 118 00:06:22,048 --> 00:06:24,634 It is a dangerous influence in society. 119 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:26,803 Dangerous, highly dangerous. 120 00:06:27,304 --> 00:06:28,972 AUGUST 9, 1969 121 00:06:29,055 --> 00:06:31,141 [reporter 5] In a scene described by a detective 122 00:06:31,224 --> 00:06:33,435 like an evocation of a strange religious rite, 123 00:06:33,518 --> 00:06:36,771 five people, including the actress Sharon Tate, found dead 124 00:06:36,855 --> 00:06:38,481 in the home of Mrs. Tate and her husband, 125 00:06:38,565 --> 00:06:40,442 the film director, Roman Polanski. 126 00:06:40,525 --> 00:06:42,277 Ms. Tate was eight months pregnant 127 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,239 and was found with a rope around it The body of a man was tied to his neck. 128 00:06:46,323 --> 00:06:48,742 Among the other victims were the Hollywood stylist 129 00:06:48,825 --> 00:06:51,995 Jay Sebring and coffee heiress Abigail Folger. 130 00:06:52,078 --> 00:06:55,916 [Thomas Noguchi] Cause of death: multiple stab wounds 131 00:06:55,999 --> 00:06:58,084 on chest and back. 132 00:06:58,168 --> 00:07:00,837 [reporter 5] An officer summarized the murders when he said: 133 00:07:00,921 --> 00:07:05,300 "In all my years, "I've never seen anything like this before." 134 00:07:05,383 --> 00:07:07,260 [reporter 6] After a while, not far from there, 135 00:07:07,344 --> 00:07:09,638 a middle aged couple was found murdered 136 00:07:09,721 --> 00:07:11,389 in similar circumstances. 137 00:07:11,890 --> 00:07:14,142 [reporter 7] Leno La Bianca, a supermarket owner 138 00:07:14,225 --> 00:07:18,688 and his wife were stabbed to death, with repeated stab wounds. 139 00:07:18,772 --> 00:07:22,692 On his body the word "war" had been carved on the chest. 140 00:07:22,776 --> 00:07:25,195 Then with blood the murderer had scribbled 141 00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:27,656 the phrase: "Death to pigs." 142 00:07:27,739 --> 00:07:29,366 [♪ intense music plays] 143 00:07:29,449 --> 00:07:31,785 [reporter 6] Five members of a supposed religious sect, 144 00:07:31,868 --> 00:07:36,039 including Charles Manson, the guru or high priest, 145 00:07:36,122 --> 00:07:39,459 have been accused of murder of Sharon Tate and six others. 146 00:07:39,542 --> 00:07:42,003 [Vincent Bugliosi] These defendants They entered the homes of citizens 147 00:07:42,087 --> 00:07:44,089 from this random community 148 00:07:44,172 --> 00:07:46,758 and literally massacred to the victims in a homicidal orgy. 149 00:07:46,841 --> 00:07:48,385 [reporter] All elements are present 150 00:07:48,468 --> 00:07:52,180 for one of the most sensational trials for homicide in the history of the country. 151 00:07:52,263 --> 00:07:54,182 The involvement of a mystical hippie clan, 152 00:07:54,265 --> 00:07:57,227 who despises society unorthodox and rich. 153 00:07:57,310 --> 00:08:00,939 Young girls, supposedly under the spell of a bearded Svengali 154 00:08:01,022 --> 00:08:03,274 who allegedly orchestrated the seven homicides. 155 00:08:03,358 --> 00:08:05,944 [reporter 7] In a conspiracy, the acts of a member 156 00:08:06,027 --> 00:08:07,904 are attributed to all members. 157 00:08:07,988 --> 00:08:11,074 Under that approach, they do not need prove that he committed the murder. 158 00:08:11,157 --> 00:08:12,867 It's all a farce, isn't it? 159 00:08:12,951 --> 00:08:14,577 [reporter 7] The act of murder itself 160 00:08:14,661 --> 00:08:17,539 will be the case against the other members of the so-called Family. 161 00:08:18,164 --> 00:08:21,209 Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, 162 00:08:21,292 --> 00:08:24,796 Leslie Van Houten, Charles Watson. 163 00:08:25,338 --> 00:08:26,756 [Bugliosi] Manson's main motive 164 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,842 to order the seven murders Tate-LaBianca 165 00:08:28,925 --> 00:08:31,469 It was his fanatical obsession with Helter Skelter, 166 00:08:31,886 --> 00:08:35,140 a term he borrowed of the musical group The Beatles. 167 00:08:35,223 --> 00:08:38,643 To detonate Helter Skelter, start the Black-White revolution. 168 00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:41,229 Manson imagined that white people 169 00:08:41,312 --> 00:08:43,148 would turn against the black man if they believed 170 00:08:43,231 --> 00:08:45,025 that the black man committed these murders. 171 00:08:45,108 --> 00:08:47,027 The victims, necessarily, they had to be white, 172 00:08:47,110 --> 00:08:49,571 and preferably in the white elite. 173 00:08:50,447 --> 00:08:52,032 [reporter 1] The jury hearing the charges 174 00:08:52,115 --> 00:08:54,409 against Charles Manson and the three young members 175 00:08:54,492 --> 00:08:57,287 of the so-called Family They delivered their verdict. 176 00:08:57,370 --> 00:09:01,291 They were all found guilty of murder in the first degree. 177 00:09:01,374 --> 00:09:03,585 [reporter 2] So, Manson yelled at the jurors: 178 00:09:03,668 --> 00:09:04,919 "You are all guilty. 179 00:09:05,003 --> 00:09:07,797 We are not allowed yet file a defense." 180 00:09:07,881 --> 00:09:10,884 The press has been the spokesperson for the prosecution. 181 00:09:10,967 --> 00:09:14,095 And they have managed to brainwash of many people. 182 00:09:14,179 --> 00:09:16,806 Charlie never preached a race war. 183 00:09:16,890 --> 00:09:19,309 -It's what the prosecutor gave you as reality. -[Tom Snyder] Okay. 184 00:09:19,392 --> 00:09:20,769 He stood up in court and said: 185 00:09:20,852 --> 00:09:23,563 This man did this and that, and you all believed him. 186 00:09:23,646 --> 00:09:25,899 CHARLES M. MANSON: MAN OR MONSTER? 187 00:09:29,444 --> 00:09:30,987 [Sophia clears throat, sniffles] 188 00:09:31,613 --> 00:09:34,032 [Sophia] Those first days after I found out... 189 00:09:35,533 --> 00:09:38,787 I don't think I have been so depressed in my life. 190 00:09:39,412 --> 00:09:40,997 I kind of hated myself. 191 00:09:43,333 --> 00:09:44,751 I hated him. 192 00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:49,839 [exhales] 193 00:09:51,716 --> 00:09:53,593 I've always been the good one. 194 00:09:54,302 --> 00:09:56,971 I have always been, or was the girl, 195 00:09:57,055 --> 00:09:59,891 with your head on straight. 196 00:09:59,974 --> 00:10:03,353 I always got these awards for integrity or solidarity, and... 197 00:10:04,896 --> 00:10:08,691 all the teachers told my parents how kind he was to everyone and... 198 00:10:10,443 --> 00:10:12,529 If someone was lonely, I sat next to him 199 00:10:12,612 --> 00:10:16,407 or if I saw someone being mistreated, I faced the abuser and... 200 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:22,831 I always felt very proud to be this good and moral person. 201 00:10:22,914 --> 00:10:25,125 ♪♪ 202 00:10:25,208 --> 00:10:27,377 and then you discover that your grandfather is Manson... 203 00:10:27,460 --> 00:10:29,546 [sobbing] 204 00:10:32,215 --> 00:10:33,883 ...the most hated man. 205 00:10:35,802 --> 00:10:39,514 Like my own blood could do something so... 206 00:10:40,473 --> 00:10:41,474 atrocious? 207 00:10:41,558 --> 00:10:43,226 How does my blood... 208 00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:46,646 could have caused the spill of blood of others? 209 00:10:46,729 --> 00:10:48,565 ♪♪ 210 00:10:48,648 --> 00:10:50,525 If it is true that there was something inside him 211 00:10:50,608 --> 00:10:53,987 What did this leader do? satanic sect... 212 00:10:55,446 --> 00:10:57,824 maybe my father and I Do we also carry it in our blood? 213 00:10:58,408 --> 00:10:59,534 [projector clatter] 214 00:10:59,617 --> 00:11:00,827 I have your eyes. 215 00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:03,788 His hands are my dad's. 216 00:11:05,456 --> 00:11:06,875 It fucks you up. 217 00:11:10,086 --> 00:11:13,506 Was he born evil or was it something more? 218 00:11:14,424 --> 00:11:16,342 I have to find out what made him like this. 219 00:11:17,385 --> 00:11:19,387 [birds chirping] 220 00:11:20,722 --> 00:11:24,767 I don't know, I just feel I surely need therapy. 221 00:11:28,938 --> 00:11:31,274 I am the offspring of the offspring from the offspring of Satan. 222 00:11:31,357 --> 00:11:33,693 You know, they called it second after Hitler. 223 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:40,158 [Dr. Rose] Eh, I don't want to minimize what you are sharing, 224 00:11:41,075 --> 00:11:44,370 but it may challenge parts of your narrative. 225 00:11:45,455 --> 00:11:50,585 Being a descendant of someone labeled like a monster among men, 226 00:11:50,668 --> 00:11:54,380 It's your divine right break that down 227 00:11:54,464 --> 00:11:56,549 and give it meaning. 228 00:11:56,633 --> 00:12:00,470 I think some of the information what you are reaching 229 00:12:00,553 --> 00:12:03,973 there are parts from Charlie's narrative 230 00:12:04,057 --> 00:12:05,642 which was sensationalized. 231 00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:09,812 If you're not careful as one of his descendants 232 00:12:09,896 --> 00:12:12,357 you will carry that sensationalization 233 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,651 and it's not your turn to carry it. 234 00:12:14,734 --> 00:12:18,071 So dismantling the sensationalism, 235 00:12:18,154 --> 00:12:19,155 what is true? 236 00:12:19,239 --> 00:12:21,199 What is necessary? What is real? 237 00:12:21,282 --> 00:12:23,243 So I have clarity about what i should break 238 00:12:23,326 --> 00:12:25,119 and what I don't have to carry. 239 00:12:25,203 --> 00:12:28,831 Why should I carry fabricated wounds? 240 00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:30,124 -TRUE? -OK. 241 00:12:30,208 --> 00:12:31,209 -[Dr. Rose] Yes? -Yeah. 242 00:12:34,128 --> 00:12:37,882 I'm going to face it. I'm going to face what he did. 243 00:12:37,966 --> 00:12:39,550 I'm not a journalist. 244 00:12:39,634 --> 00:12:42,345 It will be really difficult unearth the truth 245 00:12:42,428 --> 00:12:44,305 and i need to try maintain objectivity. 246 00:12:45,098 --> 00:12:46,474 [ringtone] 247 00:12:46,557 --> 00:12:48,643 To understand its true pathology, 248 00:12:48,726 --> 00:12:50,144 my instinct tells me that I should look 249 00:12:50,228 --> 00:12:53,273 to the only surviving prosecutor, Stephen Kay. 250 00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:55,817 I'm calling you 251 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,861 because I'm directing a documentary about Charles Manson. 252 00:13:01,406 --> 00:13:04,325 Okay, uh... Um. 253 00:13:04,409 --> 00:13:07,620 I contacted relatives of victims. 254 00:13:07,704 --> 00:13:13,001 In fact it is a different approach than you could imagine. 255 00:13:13,084 --> 00:13:16,462 But the people seemed not wanting to talk to me 256 00:13:16,546 --> 00:13:19,716 because I am the granddaughter by Charles Manson. 257 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:21,050 I see. 258 00:13:22,218 --> 00:13:23,594 Okay, thank you. 259 00:13:25,263 --> 00:13:27,307 Now that I'm Manson's granddaughter, 260 00:13:28,141 --> 00:13:31,561 People assume I'm not that moral. 261 00:13:31,644 --> 00:13:34,647 [pampering the cat] 262 00:13:34,731 --> 00:13:36,607 But I'm the same person I was 263 00:13:36,691 --> 00:13:38,985 before discovering that I am Manson's granddaughter. 264 00:13:40,278 --> 00:13:41,946 I haven't changed. 265 00:13:44,699 --> 00:13:47,535 I'm actually not sure what am I getting into, 266 00:13:47,618 --> 00:13:49,329 but I will accept whoever. 267 00:13:49,412 --> 00:13:51,914 [♪ introspective music plays] 268 00:13:53,875 --> 00:13:56,294 I located a friend of my grandfather. 269 00:13:57,045 --> 00:13:58,921 Charlie called him "Black Wolf." 270 00:14:00,131 --> 00:14:01,883 LOS ANGELES UNKNOWN LOCATION 271 00:14:01,966 --> 00:14:04,427 He's an ex-convict, someone who has lived in the underworld. 272 00:14:05,511 --> 00:14:07,722 He prefers to keep his face off camera, 273 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:10,892 and I'm nervous to meet someone 274 00:14:10,975 --> 00:14:13,019 who was face to face with Manson. 275 00:14:16,856 --> 00:14:19,275 You promised to keep in the shadows for my grandfather. 276 00:14:20,818 --> 00:14:22,945 So what did he do to you make this exception for me? 277 00:14:23,696 --> 00:14:26,407 [Black Wolf] Because you are His blood would be one thing. 278 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,078 And I believe your intentions are pure. 279 00:14:31,287 --> 00:14:32,830 That's what it seems to me. 280 00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:35,917 [Sophia] What relationship did you have with him? 281 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,254 [Black Wolf] I wrote to Charlie in 2007, just a letter, 282 00:14:40,755 --> 00:14:42,965 and I included, uh, my phone number. 283 00:14:43,049 --> 00:14:44,759 And then, he called. 284 00:14:44,842 --> 00:14:48,805 He was probably calling three times a week, or more. 285 00:14:49,847 --> 00:14:52,934 And from there, We had a relationship for 10 years. 286 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:57,021 These are all the calls that I had with Charles... 287 00:14:58,106 --> 00:15:01,484 so you can listen to them and know more. 288 00:15:04,278 --> 00:15:06,572 How many of these calls are there here? 289 00:15:06,656 --> 00:15:09,700 [Black Wolf] About 800. I think about 780, yeah. 290 00:15:10,451 --> 00:15:11,661 It will take a long time. 291 00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:13,496 [♪ suspenseful music plays] 292 00:15:15,373 --> 00:15:16,457 [snap] 293 00:15:20,044 --> 00:15:21,087 [bleep] 294 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:22,797 [operator] Your call is being connected. 295 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,173 [Black Wolf] How are you doing, friend? 296 00:15:24,257 --> 00:15:25,800 [Manson] Hang in there, friend. Holding on. 297 00:15:25,883 --> 00:15:27,927 [Black Wolf] I wanted to ask you if there is a way 298 00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:30,179 in which I can be member of your family. 299 00:15:30,263 --> 00:15:33,891 [Manson] I don't have a family. I got stuck with that tag. 300 00:15:33,975 --> 00:15:34,976 [Black Wolf] Yes, I know. 301 00:15:35,059 --> 00:15:36,060 [phone beep] 302 00:15:36,144 --> 00:15:40,523 [Manson] They labeled me as the devil a long time ago. 303 00:15:40,606 --> 00:15:43,359 And I was called that all my life. 304 00:15:43,443 --> 00:15:46,237 There is much more at stake that was never told... 305 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:47,655 that was never spoken. 306 00:15:47,738 --> 00:15:48,948 And in fact... 307 00:15:49,031 --> 00:15:50,825 [Black Wolf] You should tell it. 308 00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:54,245 [Manson] My mother abandoned me. 309 00:15:54,328 --> 00:15:55,955 He got rid of me. 310 00:15:56,038 --> 00:15:57,665 She didn't love me. 311 00:15:57,748 --> 00:16:02,128 I spent it locked up since the age of nine. 312 00:16:02,211 --> 00:16:07,467 They caught me and put me in a reformatory for boys in Indiana... 313 00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:10,470 for being incorrigible. 314 00:16:11,179 --> 00:16:13,473 Most people are controlled by your parents, right? 315 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:15,183 [Black Wolf] Yes. 316 00:16:15,266 --> 00:16:18,811 [Manson] But I didn't have parents. So who was controlling me? 317 00:16:18,895 --> 00:16:20,771 [Black Wolf] The system, definitely. 318 00:16:20,855 --> 00:16:23,858 [Manson] Yes. That's what he did to me. 319 00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:29,071 [♪ haunting music plays] 320 00:16:29,155 --> 00:16:31,282 [Sophia] Charlie might be fooling Black Wolf 321 00:16:31,365 --> 00:16:33,910 or telling the story that no one wanted to hear. 322 00:16:34,535 --> 00:16:38,372 I have to go to the Boys' School from Indiana to see for myself. 323 00:16:38,456 --> 00:16:42,919 I submitted my DNA to open my grandfather's sealed records. 324 00:16:44,462 --> 00:16:46,464 I hope to find the truth in them. 325 00:16:47,757 --> 00:16:49,342 [airplane purr] 326 00:16:52,929 --> 00:16:56,807 Every time I mention this, You seem to fear for me. 327 00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:01,854 [Daniel] [on the phone] I want you to be happy and healthy, and... 328 00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:08,361 You know, this is not a topic neither happy nor healthy. 329 00:17:09,612 --> 00:17:12,323 Unfortunately, we were all raised by dysfunctional people 330 00:17:12,406 --> 00:17:14,742 who were raised by dysfunctional people and... 331 00:17:15,993 --> 00:17:19,038 you have been so collapsed for the address... 332 00:17:19,121 --> 00:17:21,749 that the trajectory of lives from all of us they have taken. 333 00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:25,878 You are a very very resilient person. 334 00:17:25,962 --> 00:17:27,797 ♪♪ 335 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,051 You do the right things and you are going in the right directions. 336 00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:34,095 ♪♪ 337 00:17:34,178 --> 00:17:36,973 NO STEP INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS 338 00:17:39,267 --> 00:17:41,018 [electronic beeps] 339 00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:43,729 Okay, now I'm going to register it. 340 00:17:43,813 --> 00:17:45,731 Would you mind taking off your coat? 341 00:17:47,191 --> 00:17:49,235 [reporter] In this neighborhood in Indianapolis, 342 00:17:49,318 --> 00:17:53,030 He had his first brush with the law for stealing a bicycle, and then a car. 343 00:17:53,114 --> 00:17:54,282 I was 14 years old. 344 00:17:54,365 --> 00:17:56,784 ♪♪ 345 00:17:56,867 --> 00:17:58,744 Was sent to the Indiana School for Boys. 346 00:17:58,828 --> 00:18:00,204 Didn't stick to the rules 347 00:18:00,288 --> 00:18:02,373 and was transferred from one bedroom to another. 348 00:18:02,456 --> 00:18:06,294 Manson accumulated 28 reports of misconduct in two years. 349 00:18:06,377 --> 00:18:08,504 [psychologist] He had, as I described 350 00:18:08,588 --> 00:18:10,590 20 years ago, 351 00:18:10,673 --> 00:18:14,010 a chronic discipline problem, even at that time. 352 00:18:14,093 --> 00:18:16,220 ♪♪ 353 00:18:16,304 --> 00:18:17,513 [Sophia] This is school. 354 00:18:17,597 --> 00:18:19,098 [Bob Gipson] Yeah, it didn't change much. 355 00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:23,436 Hey, these are the original desks 356 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:25,605 that were used then. 357 00:18:27,982 --> 00:18:29,483 [Sophia] When was my grandfather here? 358 00:18:29,567 --> 00:18:30,943 -[Gipson] Yes. -[Sophia] Wow. 359 00:18:32,153 --> 00:18:34,530 [Gipson] I'll give you a moment to... 360 00:18:34,614 --> 00:18:36,115 -Thank you. -...let them do their thing. 361 00:18:36,198 --> 00:18:37,366 -I appreciate it. -[Dan Macallair] Thanks, Bob. 362 00:18:38,409 --> 00:18:40,828 What I would like to do is to review the records. 363 00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:41,954 My grandfather's records? 364 00:18:42,038 --> 00:18:44,457 Your grandfather's records when he was here. 365 00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:47,293 I want to stand out which is quite unusual 366 00:18:47,376 --> 00:18:48,961 that we have complete records. 367 00:18:49,045 --> 00:18:53,799 Very often, institutions They destroy them after a while. 368 00:18:53,883 --> 00:18:56,802 You have to understand that This is just part of the story, 369 00:18:56,886 --> 00:18:59,138 and it's part of the story that is told 370 00:18:59,221 --> 00:19:00,973 by the same institution. 371 00:19:01,057 --> 00:19:02,725 Would the institution soften it? 372 00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:04,352 Yes, I was about to use that word. 373 00:19:04,435 --> 00:19:05,770 -Okay. -So, yes. 374 00:19:05,853 --> 00:19:08,898 So this somehow It's a watered down version. 375 00:19:08,981 --> 00:19:11,817 This is, uh, March 31, 1949. 376 00:19:11,901 --> 00:19:13,986 This is your confinement order. 377 00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:18,741 Huh, "Charles was referred to the juvenile court, 378 00:19:18,824 --> 00:19:21,494 "in 1948, by the department of police who discovered 379 00:19:21,577 --> 00:19:23,704 "that he had stolen a bicycle, entered a market, 380 00:19:23,788 --> 00:19:25,247 "and stole a car. 381 00:19:25,331 --> 00:19:26,374 [Macallair] Ujum. 382 00:19:26,457 --> 00:19:28,125 "Charles said he was very unhappy at home 383 00:19:28,209 --> 00:19:30,378 "who thought about escaping. 384 00:19:30,461 --> 00:19:32,880 "He said his mother he continually got drunk 385 00:19:32,963 --> 00:19:34,131 and she was promiscuous." 386 00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:35,299 -Oh. -[Macallair] Uh-huh. 387 00:19:35,383 --> 00:19:38,052 [Sophia] "Declaration as a boy receiving punishment." 388 00:19:38,135 --> 00:19:41,847 "I applied for the administration of corporal punishment to Charles Manson. 389 00:19:41,931 --> 00:19:43,599 Offense: Escape." 390 00:19:43,683 --> 00:19:47,103 It was in '49, so it was the first year he was here. 391 00:19:47,186 --> 00:19:49,563 Yes, they called it "spanking with a board", 392 00:19:49,647 --> 00:19:52,733 which was a common form of punishment 393 00:19:52,817 --> 00:19:55,027 in institutions like this at that time. 394 00:19:55,111 --> 00:19:56,654 [Sophia] He was talking about this in interviews. 395 00:19:56,737 --> 00:19:58,572 [Snyder] All the pain what it has done to people 396 00:19:58,656 --> 00:20:01,450 -all the anguish it has caused... -Oh. Oh, I don't know pain. 397 00:20:01,534 --> 00:20:03,994 I don't know pain. I have no depth of pain. 398 00:20:04,078 --> 00:20:05,746 I have no depth of suffering. 399 00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:09,333 I have not been punished by you my whole life since I was ten years old. 400 00:20:09,417 --> 00:20:12,044 I've been to every reform school that they have throughout the country 401 00:20:12,128 --> 00:20:13,796 and received spankings on the butt lying on the ground 402 00:20:13,879 --> 00:20:15,464 until I can't walk. 403 00:20:15,548 --> 00:20:17,049 Tell me about pain. 404 00:20:17,133 --> 00:20:18,968 [Sophia] "Number of spanks given, 10. 405 00:20:19,051 --> 00:20:21,846 -Was the skin cut or injured? No." -[Macallair] Yes. 406 00:20:21,929 --> 00:20:24,181 [Sophia] Do you believe them when they say "mild"? 407 00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:25,558 [Macallair] Uh... [laughs] 408 00:20:25,641 --> 00:20:28,644 There would be a certain tendency to, uh... 409 00:20:29,186 --> 00:20:32,148 sometimes minimize the severity of the punishment. 410 00:20:33,149 --> 00:20:35,151 These would have been, in case 411 00:20:35,234 --> 00:20:38,571 of a more serious infraction, usually flee. 412 00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:40,406 And that was his thing. 413 00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:42,533 I think he tried 18 times when he was here. 414 00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:46,287 The only way to keep to the kids in the institutions was... 415 00:20:46,787 --> 00:20:48,706 punishing them severely. 416 00:20:51,041 --> 00:20:53,210 [Sophia] "The great debate it was whether to hit the boys 417 00:20:53,294 --> 00:20:55,463 with his pants on or without them. 418 00:20:55,546 --> 00:20:57,381 "When the leather rope it had no effect, 419 00:20:57,465 --> 00:20:59,842 "The guards took them out to the cornfield 420 00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:01,635 and they beat them until urinating on himself." 421 00:21:02,595 --> 00:21:06,515 I didn't know it was so bad. 422 00:21:07,308 --> 00:21:10,102 [Macallair] Here's a story on them with the exhaust. 423 00:21:10,186 --> 00:21:14,273 Ujum. This boy escaped from the Indiana School for Boys 424 00:21:15,065 --> 00:21:16,192 and was interviewed and... 425 00:21:16,275 --> 00:21:17,359 [Macallair] With Charlie. 426 00:21:17,443 --> 00:21:18,527 -Oh really? -[Macallair] Yes. 427 00:21:18,861 --> 00:21:20,780 [Sophia] "Manson said: 'I was kicked in the back 428 00:21:20,863 --> 00:21:22,990 "for not working hard enough fast on the school farm'. 429 00:21:23,073 --> 00:21:27,161 "He was also forced to hold to other boys while they were beaten. 430 00:21:27,244 --> 00:21:30,664 "Quote: 'You don't have much choice when they order you to do it, 431 00:21:30,748 --> 00:21:33,334 but you prefer to receive yourself the beating rather than restraining them. 432 00:21:33,417 --> 00:21:34,543 [Macallair] Ujum. 433 00:21:34,627 --> 00:21:36,962 [Sophia] "'A boy who refuses to restrain another 434 00:21:37,046 --> 00:21:39,006 "He takes a beating himself,' Manson said." 435 00:21:39,089 --> 00:21:41,300 I would only know that having refused to hold him. 436 00:21:41,383 --> 00:21:42,468 [Macallair] Mm. Yes. 437 00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:45,346 [Sophia] I can't think of anyone... 438 00:21:46,555 --> 00:21:49,517 no boy or minor who deserves 439 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,560 none of this, no matter what they did. 440 00:21:51,644 --> 00:21:53,062 It's simply inhumane. 441 00:21:54,355 --> 00:21:56,232 Your grandfather was a product of failure 442 00:21:56,315 --> 00:21:58,067 of the juvenile justice system. 443 00:21:59,068 --> 00:22:00,528 He wasn't born that way. 444 00:22:01,153 --> 00:22:04,114 He is a product of the system 445 00:22:04,198 --> 00:22:06,742 and it is a system that failed. 446 00:22:06,826 --> 00:22:08,786 ♪♪ 447 00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:12,748 [Gipson] This part here it hasn't changed. 448 00:22:12,832 --> 00:22:15,501 This unit would sheltered boys 449 00:22:15,584 --> 00:22:18,379 from 14 to 16 years old. 450 00:22:18,462 --> 00:22:20,965 31 to 45 would have been here. 451 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:22,925 [Sophia] Damn. 452 00:22:25,427 --> 00:22:27,137 Was there sexual assault? 453 00:22:28,055 --> 00:22:29,139 [Gipson] Occasionally. 454 00:22:30,057 --> 00:22:32,685 One of the biggest challenges was 455 00:22:32,768 --> 00:22:35,980 that if you had a more dominant student, 456 00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:39,316 could be used from a younger student. 457 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,943 [Sophia] One of the things I read 458 00:22:41,026 --> 00:22:44,864 is that my grandfather was victim of gang rape... 459 00:22:44,947 --> 00:22:47,783 -[Macallair] Ujum. -...in... a boys' school. 460 00:22:47,867 --> 00:22:49,243 I think he said it was in this one. 461 00:22:49,827 --> 00:22:52,955 He was small in stature. I was 15 years old. 462 00:22:53,497 --> 00:22:55,958 So it would have been vulnerable to attacks. 463 00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:59,211 The reality of life here, I mean, it wasn't easy. 464 00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,215 [Sophia] But did he also rape a boy at knifepoint? 465 00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:06,677 That was always a problem in facilities like this. 466 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,805 His argument was that he was protecting himself, but... 467 00:23:09,889 --> 00:23:11,015 Yes. 468 00:23:11,098 --> 00:23:14,351 What a cruel thing have to do that... 469 00:23:14,435 --> 00:23:17,980 to feel protected being the aggressor. 470 00:23:18,063 --> 00:23:20,274 Unfortunately, There are too many situations, 471 00:23:20,357 --> 00:23:22,693 what they go through kids in institutions 472 00:23:22,776 --> 00:23:26,238 who learn lessons in survival. 473 00:23:26,322 --> 00:23:28,866 social workers in those institutions 474 00:23:28,949 --> 00:23:31,744 identified as one of the biggest problems for him 475 00:23:31,827 --> 00:23:33,329 and for its adaptation it is the fact 476 00:23:33,412 --> 00:23:36,206 that he spent a lot of time in an institution like this 477 00:23:36,290 --> 00:23:38,918 that I was not prepared to enter the world outside. 478 00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:42,630 Yes, my dad... I grew up with my dad telling me 479 00:23:42,713 --> 00:23:45,549 of his time in a military reformatory. 480 00:23:45,633 --> 00:23:46,926 And, uh... 481 00:23:48,719 --> 00:23:49,845 Yes. 482 00:23:51,388 --> 00:23:53,140 [Daniel] When I was eight years old, 483 00:23:54,058 --> 00:23:58,228 I went to Mt. Lowe Military Academy in Pasadena, California. 484 00:23:58,312 --> 00:24:00,564 ♪♪ 485 00:24:00,981 --> 00:24:02,066 Hey... 486 00:24:04,777 --> 00:24:07,655 It was... it was hell. 487 00:24:07,738 --> 00:24:10,366 It was... it was the worst of the worst. 488 00:24:11,075 --> 00:24:13,035 It was like Lord of the Flies. 489 00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:17,373 Boys came out around the corner 490 00:24:17,456 --> 00:24:19,124 and they came to me and said: 491 00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:21,418 "Hey, I'll suck your dick, if you suck mine." 492 00:24:22,962 --> 00:24:26,757 I was just a child. I was thinking, "What is a whistle?" 493 00:24:27,341 --> 00:24:28,509 Hey... 494 00:24:29,468 --> 00:24:32,221 The first thing the commander did It was abusing me. 495 00:24:32,304 --> 00:24:34,640 The second thing was to give me a gun. 496 00:24:34,723 --> 00:24:37,685 So I fired everything at that target. 497 00:24:39,228 --> 00:24:40,813 And I turned out so good that they took me 498 00:24:40,896 --> 00:24:43,565 to other military schools to show off. 499 00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:47,361 And having asked me because he had such a good aim, 500 00:24:47,444 --> 00:24:50,155 I would have said that I imagined to the commander who abused me 501 00:24:50,239 --> 00:24:53,826 and to my parents in that goal for sending me to that horrible place. 502 00:24:57,454 --> 00:24:59,415 [♪ somber music plays] 503 00:24:59,498 --> 00:25:01,709 [Sophia crying] 504 00:25:01,792 --> 00:25:03,961 [Dr. Rose] What's coming up, Sophia? 505 00:25:04,044 --> 00:25:05,212 [Sophia] Uh... 506 00:25:05,295 --> 00:25:07,756 I think the first time who told me that he had been abused 507 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:08,966 I was a girl too. 508 00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:11,343 And... But it was because... 509 00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:16,223 He trained me. I was wondering: "Has anyone touched you?" 510 00:25:16,306 --> 00:25:17,349 -[Dr. Rose] Okay. -He just wanted 511 00:25:17,433 --> 00:25:19,351 -make sure it had not been touched. -Okay. 512 00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:24,314 [Sophia] Prepared me to be as a survivor and fighter 513 00:25:24,398 --> 00:25:25,858 because of his pain. 514 00:25:26,692 --> 00:25:29,361 [Dr. Rose] And that would be intergenerational trauma. 515 00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:35,075 The transfer of inappropriate coping responses. 516 00:25:35,159 --> 00:25:38,495 Because I went through something, I'm going to present it to you 517 00:25:38,579 --> 00:25:41,623 to prepare you to not go through that. 518 00:25:41,707 --> 00:25:43,083 But for the purpose of presenting it to you, 519 00:25:43,167 --> 00:25:46,378 I also have to introduce you the traumatizing element of it, right? 520 00:25:46,462 --> 00:25:48,672 and put your brain in survival mode. 521 00:25:50,424 --> 00:25:53,093 I'm not questioning your dad's love for you. 522 00:25:53,177 --> 00:25:54,678 I believe it. 523 00:25:55,262 --> 00:25:58,682 But what happens when we are loved from wounded spaces? 524 00:26:01,143 --> 00:26:03,437 Something more than also I'm hearing from you, huh, 525 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,689 have you heard the term "parentized child"? 526 00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:08,525 -Only from you. -[Dr. Rose] [laughs] Okay. 527 00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:10,861 If you tell any child 528 00:26:10,944 --> 00:26:12,613 this happened to me and this happened, 529 00:26:12,696 --> 00:26:15,532 you see the person you love suffering and you want to fix it. 530 00:26:15,616 --> 00:26:19,453 So we go into reversed roles with parents. 531 00:26:19,536 --> 00:26:23,957 Now I have a higher sense responsibility on you, right? 532 00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:27,795 Start thinking about limits around this whole process 533 00:26:27,878 --> 00:26:30,380 to unravel to become. 534 00:26:30,964 --> 00:26:34,802 Because you are in process to become the first generation 535 00:26:34,885 --> 00:26:37,179 that will not follow those same patterns. 536 00:26:38,889 --> 00:26:41,350 You are the one who is breaking generational dynamics 537 00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:43,435 and saying, "I'm going to work on myself." 538 00:26:44,853 --> 00:26:48,357 "I am because they didn't go." That's our mantra. 539 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:52,069 "I am because they didn't go." 540 00:26:54,571 --> 00:26:59,868 [Daniel] In 2017, I fell into this abyss. 541 00:27:00,369 --> 00:27:01,537 [camera snap] 542 00:27:02,496 --> 00:27:04,623 I basically told God: 543 00:27:05,165 --> 00:27:08,001 "Until you reveal to me who my father is, 544 00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:10,546 "I'm going to give up everything. 545 00:27:11,088 --> 00:27:15,843 "I'm not going to work. I'm not going to love. I'm not going to live. 546 00:27:16,510 --> 00:27:20,848 I won't do anything. "I'll sleep under a park bench." 547 00:27:20,931 --> 00:27:24,309 So that's what I did, I turned off. I didn't do anything. 548 00:27:24,393 --> 00:27:26,728 I always wanted to know who was your father 549 00:27:26,812 --> 00:27:30,566 [Daniel] Yes. I never met him, but I know him. 550 00:27:30,899 --> 00:27:32,109 Do you know what I mean? 551 00:27:33,527 --> 00:27:35,571 I am him, but I am not him. 552 00:27:39,408 --> 00:27:42,119 [Sophia] I always felt like my dad too. 553 00:27:42,202 --> 00:27:44,288 Was that just an echo of your trauma 554 00:27:44,788 --> 00:27:48,041 or was it Charlie whispering to us through our genes? 555 00:27:48,834 --> 00:27:51,753 If I keep digging, what am I going to find? 556 00:27:53,797 --> 00:27:56,758 ♪♪ 557 00:27:58,427 --> 00:28:00,470 [reporter 1] The sensational headlines 558 00:28:00,554 --> 00:28:02,848 They soon turned Sharon Tate murders 559 00:28:02,931 --> 00:28:05,225 to the trial of Charles Manson. 560 00:28:05,309 --> 00:28:07,352 [reporter 2] There are charges for seven murders and conspiracy 561 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:11,732 against four accused requiring 27 different verdicts. 562 00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:13,734 [reporter 3] The case of has become 563 00:28:13,817 --> 00:28:16,361 in a strange sensation national and international, 564 00:28:16,445 --> 00:28:18,280 attracting everyone's attention 565 00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:20,741 since president nixon even the curious sitting 566 00:28:20,824 --> 00:28:23,285 in the courtroom where the case is tried. 567 00:28:23,368 --> 00:28:25,412 Nobody in this entire metropolis I was safe. 568 00:28:25,495 --> 00:28:26,622 SHARON TATE'S MOTHER 569 00:28:26,705 --> 00:28:28,832 Not even animals treat their own 570 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:31,210 how these people did with ours. 571 00:28:31,293 --> 00:28:32,711 HOMICIDAL ORGY 572 00:28:32,794 --> 00:28:33,795 RACIAL WAR 'SATAN' PLAN 573 00:28:33,879 --> 00:28:35,714 [Daniel] When I was 10 years old, 574 00:28:35,797 --> 00:28:39,635 In 1970, his photography was... 575 00:28:39,718 --> 00:28:41,720 on all covers. 576 00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:43,347 WHEN SATAN ORDERED KILL THE SECT! 577 00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:44,723 CAN THIS MAN CONTROL YOU? 578 00:28:44,806 --> 00:28:46,725 THE SECT OF LOVE AND TERROR 579 00:28:46,808 --> 00:28:48,352 He was everywhere. 580 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,484 I think my mother knew that my dad is Charles Manson. 581 00:28:56,902 --> 00:28:59,738 I remember that my mother He cornered me in a bathroom... 582 00:29:03,075 --> 00:29:04,534 [voice broken] and he beat me to pieces. 583 00:29:06,245 --> 00:29:09,373 With the vacuum cleaner cord, with the plug... 584 00:29:10,999 --> 00:29:12,542 for about five minutes. 585 00:29:14,962 --> 00:29:16,380 I didn't do anything. 586 00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:23,428 She was just getting even his shame and anger with me. 587 00:29:23,512 --> 00:29:25,514 [♪ somber music plays] 588 00:29:30,602 --> 00:29:33,021 [Sophia] I'm researching now, 589 00:29:33,522 --> 00:29:36,525 and the similarities between my dad and Charles 590 00:29:36,608 --> 00:29:38,902 They are a little disturbing since his birth. 591 00:29:39,611 --> 00:29:42,406 Charles Manson was born of a teenage mother 592 00:29:42,489 --> 00:29:44,866 and a father who disappeared. 593 00:29:45,284 --> 00:29:49,371 My father was born in 1959 of a mother 594 00:29:49,454 --> 00:29:51,873 who was a teenager, I was 17 years old, 595 00:29:51,957 --> 00:29:55,627 and a father who simply disappeared. 596 00:29:55,711 --> 00:30:00,090 Charles Manson was my age when he met my grandmother, 597 00:30:00,590 --> 00:30:02,926 and he called himself Charlie Dear. 598 00:30:03,635 --> 00:30:08,640 Hey, he just left prison for pimping. 599 00:30:09,474 --> 00:30:12,561 According to the story they They met at a bus stop, 600 00:30:12,644 --> 00:30:15,897 and they had a one night stand, possibly two nights. 601 00:30:16,648 --> 00:30:18,900 When my grandmother realized that I was pregnant, 602 00:30:18,984 --> 00:30:20,819 Charlie was back in prison. 603 00:30:21,445 --> 00:30:26,158 He was sentenced to 10 years for forging a check for $37.50. 604 00:30:26,241 --> 00:30:28,660 It's sad to think that he could having stayed with our family, 605 00:30:28,744 --> 00:30:30,954 but maybe he was more comfortable 606 00:30:31,038 --> 00:30:33,665 with the only family that he knew in his life. 607 00:30:33,749 --> 00:30:37,377 [Jeff Melnick] Manson, essentially, He has been in prison since he was 12 years old. 608 00:30:37,461 --> 00:30:39,880 until it came out in 1967. 609 00:30:39,963 --> 00:30:41,214 There is a greater cultural truth, 610 00:30:41,298 --> 00:30:44,092 which is that imprisonment breaks people. 611 00:30:44,176 --> 00:30:46,887 [♪ introspective music plays] 612 00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:49,348 Manson is a great example of that, 613 00:30:49,431 --> 00:30:51,433 that being imprisoned from an early age 614 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:54,227 It means that you will carry things 615 00:30:54,311 --> 00:30:55,937 that will make you truly impossible 616 00:30:56,021 --> 00:30:57,731 function normally. 617 00:30:57,814 --> 00:30:59,608 And I think he said it in interviews. 618 00:30:59,691 --> 00:31:01,526 -He said: "I'm not from your world." -[Melnick] Yes. 619 00:31:01,610 --> 00:31:03,028 "I was imprisoned all my life. 620 00:31:03,111 --> 00:31:04,112 I'm not from your world." 621 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:05,864 Yes, he put it in family language. 622 00:31:05,947 --> 00:31:07,532 [Manson] I've been in prison all my life. 623 00:31:07,616 --> 00:31:09,284 Older men in prison raised me, 624 00:31:09,368 --> 00:31:11,161 They told me what to do, what was right and wrong. 625 00:31:11,244 --> 00:31:12,329 When to sit, when to stop 626 00:31:12,412 --> 00:31:13,747 I did everything I was told. 627 00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:15,332 -[Melnick] He acted a lot. -Yeah. 628 00:31:15,415 --> 00:31:17,334 [Melnick] But when he said that, I don't think he acted. 629 00:31:17,417 --> 00:31:18,418 Yes. 630 00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:21,463 How and when created the Manson family? 631 00:31:22,547 --> 00:31:25,842 [Melnick] Manson leaves prison in 1967, 632 00:31:25,926 --> 00:31:27,886 arrives in San Francisco during the Summer of Love. 633 00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,306 This is the summer of emergence 634 00:31:31,390 --> 00:31:34,434 of the counterculture, its practices, 635 00:31:34,518 --> 00:31:36,395 which included free love. 636 00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:38,688 Manson, he was greedy. 637 00:31:38,772 --> 00:31:41,108 He is not the age of the common hippie, He is in his 30s. 638 00:31:41,191 --> 00:31:43,151 And begin to know women in the area... 639 00:31:43,735 --> 00:31:45,779 and a little gathering his tribe. 640 00:31:45,862 --> 00:31:48,240 SUSAN "SADIE" ATKINS FAMILY MEMBER 641 00:31:48,323 --> 00:31:49,741 MARY BRUNNER FAMILY MEMBER 642 00:31:49,825 --> 00:31:51,159 [Sophia] What were those women like? 643 00:31:51,243 --> 00:31:52,536 Did they come from good families? 644 00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:54,413 Did they have their own family? 645 00:31:54,496 --> 00:31:57,749 If you get the press coverage of the Manson women, 646 00:31:57,833 --> 00:32:00,001 They were almost, you know, 647 00:32:00,085 --> 00:32:03,171 unanimously characterized like these witches, 648 00:32:03,255 --> 00:32:06,758 these are terrible, intentionally evil, 649 00:32:06,842 --> 00:32:09,428 hypersexualized drug addicts. 650 00:32:09,511 --> 00:32:11,221 But I really resist that. 651 00:32:11,304 --> 00:32:13,765 I am very interested to think about them 652 00:32:13,849 --> 00:32:15,350 like abused women. 653 00:32:15,809 --> 00:32:17,519 Mostly, they were runaways. 654 00:32:17,602 --> 00:32:19,521 young women that they found a way out, 655 00:32:19,604 --> 00:32:21,398 like many young people He did it at that time, 656 00:32:21,481 --> 00:32:25,819 to California as a place that seemed safer and freer. 657 00:32:26,736 --> 00:32:29,406 They moved to southern California in '68, 658 00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:31,616 quite well established what we call the Family. 659 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,202 [Ruby Pearl] They call it the Family, They are brothers and sisters. 660 00:32:34,286 --> 00:32:35,996 They just live where they feel like it. 661 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:37,664 [Denise Armstrong] They often consume weed 662 00:32:37,747 --> 00:32:38,874 SPAHN RANCH EMPLOYEE 663 00:32:38,957 --> 00:32:40,333 and they drink wine and steal cars. 664 00:32:40,417 --> 00:32:42,752 [Manson] It was a spiritual, divine intervention. 665 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:44,045 It just happened, man. 666 00:32:44,129 --> 00:32:46,506 In other words, I didn't go out into the street and get 667 00:32:46,590 --> 00:32:49,176 enough people to take membership cards and all that... 668 00:32:49,259 --> 00:32:50,969 ...no one was joining. 669 00:32:51,052 --> 00:32:53,680 We were just like, uh... sitting smoking marijuana 670 00:32:53,763 --> 00:32:55,265 talking shit and playing music, man. 671 00:32:57,476 --> 00:32:59,060 [reporter] What kind of person is Charlie? 672 00:32:59,144 --> 00:33:01,605 He is a good person. Very good person. 673 00:33:01,688 --> 00:33:03,064 It has some peace. 674 00:33:03,523 --> 00:33:04,858 [presenter] He calls her "Squeaky", 675 00:33:04,941 --> 00:33:08,570 and she became one of the first members of his so-called Family. 676 00:33:08,653 --> 00:33:09,654 [camera snap] 677 00:33:09,738 --> 00:33:11,448 [Melnick] There is a great documentary 678 00:33:11,531 --> 00:33:13,658 containing amazing images Spahn Ranch 679 00:33:13,742 --> 00:33:16,161 where, for example, Lynette Fromme you're, like, 680 00:33:16,244 --> 00:33:18,079 posing with a rifle. 681 00:33:18,163 --> 00:33:21,041 And she really wants give this vibe, 682 00:33:21,124 --> 00:33:25,462 like a terrifying and chaotic energy. 683 00:33:25,545 --> 00:33:27,797 [Sophia] Although he wasn't there involved in the homicides 684 00:33:27,881 --> 00:33:29,799 served a sentence over 30 years 685 00:33:29,883 --> 00:33:32,093 for trying to murder to President Ford 686 00:33:32,177 --> 00:33:34,471 as a protest for environmental destruction. 687 00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:36,848 can i ask you if i can record this? 688 00:33:37,807 --> 00:33:39,684 -[Lynette Fromme] [on phone] Yes. -Good, thank you. 689 00:33:40,185 --> 00:33:43,396 I want to start at the beginning. 690 00:33:44,272 --> 00:33:46,858 [Fromme] With Charlie, we were a very... 691 00:33:47,567 --> 00:33:51,530 cohesive feminine energy. 692 00:33:51,863 --> 00:33:54,199 We lived day by day 693 00:33:54,282 --> 00:33:59,037 and we opened 694 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,751 to that experience of the universe. 695 00:34:04,834 --> 00:34:06,253 [soft laughter] 696 00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:09,714 most of us We wanted to be with Charlie. 697 00:34:09,798 --> 00:34:12,842 I don't think there would be no doubt about it. 698 00:34:12,926 --> 00:34:17,222 He thought that while more people became part of it, 699 00:34:17,931 --> 00:34:19,641 it would be better. 700 00:34:19,724 --> 00:34:21,351 [♪ soft music plays] 701 00:34:22,143 --> 00:34:23,478 [Sophia] I know other Manson girls 702 00:34:23,562 --> 00:34:26,273 they have a lot of memories darkest of my grandfather. 703 00:34:26,731 --> 00:34:29,943 I contacted Dianne Lake, Also known as "Snake", 704 00:34:30,026 --> 00:34:32,445 who was 14 years old when he joined the Family. 705 00:34:33,488 --> 00:34:37,325 [Allie's voice] Are you feeling okay? regarding what will happen tomorrow? 706 00:34:38,702 --> 00:34:40,412 -Yeah. -[Allie] Yes? 707 00:34:40,495 --> 00:34:43,540 [broken voice] Yes, always It was going to be a little hard. Hey... 708 00:34:44,749 --> 00:34:46,835 It's my first time meeting a victim. 709 00:34:47,419 --> 00:34:48,753 [Allie] I wish... 710 00:34:48,837 --> 00:34:52,132 you wouldn't have this heavy burden on your shoulders. 711 00:34:52,215 --> 00:34:55,051 You take on the struggles of so many people... 712 00:34:55,135 --> 00:34:57,679 to try to understand them. 713 00:34:57,762 --> 00:35:00,098 Well, hold on, okay? 714 00:35:00,181 --> 00:35:02,559 -[Sophia] Okay, thanks. -[Allie] Okay, thank you. 715 00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:04,561 -[Sophia] We talked. Bye bye. -[Allie] Bye. 716 00:35:05,854 --> 00:35:08,565 [Sophia] How did you meet my grandfather? 717 00:35:08,648 --> 00:35:12,527 I had a huge disconnection with my parents. 718 00:35:12,611 --> 00:35:15,113 And then, I had this, uh... 719 00:35:15,614 --> 00:35:20,327 This acid trip where I heard God tell me it was time to leave my house. 720 00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:21,494 AGE 13 721 00:35:21,578 --> 00:35:23,455 I hitchhiked to Los Angeles 722 00:35:23,538 --> 00:35:28,376 and shortly after arriving, I went to a party. 723 00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:30,879 Lynette comes out and... 724 00:35:31,671 --> 00:35:34,883 "Dianne! Charlie! Dianne's here!" You already know? 725 00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:36,885 And he gives me a big hug. 726 00:35:36,968 --> 00:35:40,347 And Charlie gets up from, you know, from the circle, 727 00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:43,099 offers me a drink of your soda 728 00:35:43,433 --> 00:35:46,603 and I fell totally in love with him. 729 00:35:46,686 --> 00:35:49,105 That is, here I was loved, embraced. 730 00:35:49,189 --> 00:35:51,024 Charlie took me to the bus that night 731 00:35:51,107 --> 00:35:54,027 and he made love to me like I had never experienced before 732 00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:55,487 in my entire life. 733 00:35:56,029 --> 00:35:58,823 I felt truly loved as a woman, you know, 734 00:35:58,907 --> 00:36:01,743 and not just a girl which they were taking advantage of. 735 00:36:02,118 --> 00:36:04,496 So I got on the bus. 736 00:36:04,829 --> 00:36:07,874 That's when we walked in in contact with Spahn Ranch. 737 00:36:08,875 --> 00:36:11,169 -Charlie played the guitar... -[Sophia] Ujum. 738 00:36:11,252 --> 00:36:13,171 [Dianne Lake] ...and we sang. 739 00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:17,634 Charlie had this way to combine music, 740 00:36:17,717 --> 00:36:20,845 with things from the bible, Buddhism things. 741 00:36:20,929 --> 00:36:24,307 I had this ability to weave it all together, 742 00:36:24,391 --> 00:36:27,727 so that it sounded very, oh, special and... 743 00:36:27,811 --> 00:36:31,564 As if he had a special inner gift. 744 00:36:32,732 --> 00:36:35,443 That was a bit of his control over us. 745 00:36:36,778 --> 00:36:39,072 I think he had a Messiah complex. 746 00:36:42,033 --> 00:36:44,327 [Melnick] Manson and his Family are generally understood 747 00:36:44,411 --> 00:36:46,746 as part of the counterculture, but actually 748 00:36:46,830 --> 00:36:50,500 they just took a ladle and they removed what was on top, the surface. 749 00:36:50,583 --> 00:36:53,211 He gets the part of free love, without a doubt. 750 00:36:53,878 --> 00:36:56,131 He understands the drugs part, no doubt. 751 00:36:56,214 --> 00:36:57,507 But this was a commune 752 00:36:57,590 --> 00:37:00,093 organized for the benefit of a single man. 753 00:37:00,969 --> 00:37:03,680 He was a scammer, you know. A manipulator. 754 00:37:03,763 --> 00:37:06,516 He was approaching them not with empathy 755 00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:08,435 or with solidarity. 756 00:37:08,518 --> 00:37:11,980 but with this idea that he could get from them what you want. 757 00:37:12,063 --> 00:37:16,109 So they stole, they sold drugs, They also had night raids. 758 00:37:16,192 --> 00:37:19,946 And that is a crime that I consider It's not talked about enough. 759 00:37:20,655 --> 00:37:22,115 Manson and some of the girls, 760 00:37:22,198 --> 00:37:25,493 and whoever was awake at night 761 00:37:25,577 --> 00:37:29,539 They went out in a group in a pair of cars and they only chose a house 762 00:37:29,622 --> 00:37:32,000 where people were sleeping. 763 00:37:32,542 --> 00:37:35,628 They broke into houses in Los Angeles and surrounding areas, 764 00:37:35,712 --> 00:37:40,383 and they literally came in, They rearranged the furniture and left. 765 00:37:40,467 --> 00:37:42,010 I mean, they changed enough, 766 00:37:42,093 --> 00:37:44,012 so that people would wake up and know: 767 00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:45,305 "They invaded us." 768 00:37:45,764 --> 00:37:48,224 [Catherine "Gypsy" Share] When he started taking girls 769 00:37:48,308 --> 00:37:49,517 to night raids 770 00:37:49,601 --> 00:37:51,519 in fact I was doing let them get used to it 771 00:37:51,603 --> 00:37:54,147 you know, robberies and call them something nice. 772 00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:56,816 [Melnick] As part of his patriarchal control of the Family, 773 00:37:57,358 --> 00:37:59,819 Manson is a psychedelic guide. 774 00:37:59,903 --> 00:38:01,446 [♪ sinister music plays] 775 00:38:01,529 --> 00:38:04,449 That is, it was very related with his sexual control of the family. 776 00:38:04,532 --> 00:38:06,576 He put people to hallucinate wildly, 777 00:38:06,659 --> 00:38:10,163 and then organized several couplings. 778 00:38:10,246 --> 00:38:12,248 [Paul Watkins] When I was with Charlie, we drank... 779 00:38:12,332 --> 00:38:17,128 between 30 and 40 acid trips alone. 780 00:38:17,212 --> 00:38:19,506 This is without counting all psilocybin and mescaline 781 00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:21,132 and a little opium. 782 00:38:21,216 --> 00:38:24,135 [Barbara Hoyt] They went through their acid trips together. 783 00:38:24,219 --> 00:38:27,222 They went through their things group sex together. 784 00:38:27,305 --> 00:38:29,224 But it was always Charlie's will. 785 00:38:29,307 --> 00:38:32,185 Everyone was subject to the will from Charlie no matter what. 786 00:38:32,268 --> 00:38:33,686 He was the father. 787 00:38:34,604 --> 00:38:37,816 [Melnick] Manson is trying to advance his musical career 788 00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:41,653 using as a vehicle to the women in his family 789 00:38:41,736 --> 00:38:44,364 making them, you know, available, 790 00:38:44,447 --> 00:38:46,866 uh, to a wide range of men in the music industry. 791 00:38:47,408 --> 00:38:49,244 Did you prostitute them at that time? 792 00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:51,663 -A bit. For favors. -Um. 793 00:38:51,746 --> 00:38:53,832 You know, it wasn't directly for money, 794 00:38:53,915 --> 00:38:57,210 but it was definitely for favors. 795 00:38:58,169 --> 00:39:02,298 [Share] Charlie invited me and another young girl, Gale, 796 00:39:02,382 --> 00:39:05,009 to go swimming home by Dennis Wilson. 797 00:39:05,093 --> 00:39:06,511 [Lake] Come on, The Beach Boys. 798 00:39:06,594 --> 00:39:08,137 They were on par 799 00:39:08,221 --> 00:39:09,806 of The Beatles at that time. 800 00:39:09,889 --> 00:39:12,600 These are core types in the music industry. 801 00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:15,728 Terry Melcher was a major producer. 802 00:39:15,812 --> 00:39:17,063 They were going to Rancho Spahn 803 00:39:17,146 --> 00:39:20,275 and they had sex with very young women 804 00:39:20,358 --> 00:39:23,403 because they knew Charlie would take care of it to select for them. 805 00:39:23,486 --> 00:39:24,904 [Manson] I didn't go with Terry Melcher. 806 00:39:24,988 --> 00:39:26,614 He came to me with money in his hand. 807 00:39:26,698 --> 00:39:28,616 He offered it to me. I didn't ask him. 808 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:30,451 [Melnick] A little bit had gotten stronger 809 00:39:30,535 --> 00:39:32,203 with this new idea of himself. 810 00:39:32,287 --> 00:39:33,538 He was the father of this family. 811 00:39:33,621 --> 00:39:35,206 He was going to be a famous rock star, 812 00:39:35,290 --> 00:39:37,041 and there were enough people around you 813 00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:38,877 They thought he was very talented. 814 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,380 Neil Young is one of the few who has been willing to declare publicly 815 00:39:42,463 --> 00:39:44,257 that Manson was very talented. 816 00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:47,552 So when it showed up to your official musical audition 817 00:39:47,635 --> 00:39:49,846 with Terry Melcher in a studio, 818 00:39:49,929 --> 00:39:52,932 Manson thinks he's going to get a record contract. 819 00:39:53,016 --> 00:39:54,517 And then, he doesn't get it. 820 00:39:54,601 --> 00:39:57,145 And I think that really drives Manson crazy. 821 00:39:58,104 --> 00:40:01,399 When I went with Dennis Wilson, Hey, the Beach Boys, 822 00:40:01,482 --> 00:40:03,985 I said, "You owe me money for music. Where is the money?" 823 00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:07,030 They send me to the Italian manager. 824 00:40:07,488 --> 00:40:10,533 I said, "Shouldn't I get something for this music?" 825 00:40:10,617 --> 00:40:13,286 And he says, "No, you don't get anything." 826 00:40:13,369 --> 00:40:14,787 He says, "Sue me." 827 00:40:14,871 --> 00:40:16,956 I said: I won't sue you. I'll put a bomb in your car. 828 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,458 I'll blow your house up." 829 00:40:18,541 --> 00:40:20,752 ♪♪ 830 00:40:22,670 --> 00:40:24,464 [Sophia] I'm going to talk to Ed Roach. 831 00:40:24,547 --> 00:40:25,924 We wrote to each other this morning. 832 00:40:26,007 --> 00:40:27,800 He was a Beach Boys photographer. 833 00:40:27,884 --> 00:40:29,969 -[camera snap] -Good friend of Dennis Wilson. 834 00:40:30,053 --> 00:40:31,220 [camera snap] 835 00:40:31,304 --> 00:40:34,140 My dad and I love the Beach Boys. 836 00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:36,684 So this is crazy. 837 00:40:37,226 --> 00:40:38,978 [turn signal] 838 00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:40,730 I'm a little excited. 839 00:40:42,273 --> 00:40:43,733 -It's you? Wow. -[Ed Roach] Yes. 840 00:40:43,816 --> 00:40:48,446 That was in 1971 or 73 maybe, 841 00:40:48,529 --> 00:40:50,323 photographing The Beach Boys with Dennis. 842 00:40:50,406 --> 00:40:51,783 These photographs that you collected, 843 00:40:51,866 --> 00:40:54,160 that was the first time, 844 00:40:54,243 --> 00:40:57,205 the only time I went to Rancho Spahn. 845 00:40:57,288 --> 00:40:59,499 Blessed be the moment in which things happen. 846 00:40:59,582 --> 00:41:01,960 Because my wife and I were 847 00:41:02,043 --> 00:41:05,046 so fucking sexual, we were so crazy 848 00:41:05,129 --> 00:41:08,967 that very easily we would have been drawn to the Family. 849 00:41:09,050 --> 00:41:11,260 We didn't even look at the fact 850 00:41:11,344 --> 00:41:13,346 that we were flying towards a central murder zone, 851 00:41:13,429 --> 00:41:16,557 and it turns out to be with one of the people who is... 852 00:41:16,641 --> 00:41:18,768 -[Sophia] Yes. -...intimately involved in it. 853 00:41:18,851 --> 00:41:21,145 And then the next night, I met Charlie. 854 00:41:21,896 --> 00:41:24,732 Dennis and my ex wife they were sitting at the piano 855 00:41:25,191 --> 00:41:26,776 where they were great together. 856 00:41:26,859 --> 00:41:28,653 Two minutes later, the door burst open 857 00:41:28,736 --> 00:41:31,698 and Charlie says: "I just came from the moon!" 858 00:41:31,781 --> 00:41:34,534 And I'm seeing Charlie looking at my wife like: 859 00:41:34,617 --> 00:41:36,077 "I want to fuck you," you know? 860 00:41:36,577 --> 00:41:39,414 And I'm looking at Charlie like: "I'm going to beat you up." 861 00:41:39,497 --> 00:41:42,417 And Dennis is provoking all this with the piano. 862 00:41:42,875 --> 00:41:45,003 And Charlie and I started fighting 863 00:41:45,086 --> 00:41:46,462 and Dennis jumped, 864 00:41:46,546 --> 00:41:48,423 and said, "This is not going to happen here." 865 00:41:48,506 --> 00:41:50,008 And he carried Charlie out the door. 866 00:41:50,091 --> 00:41:51,426 [Sophia] So Dennis... 867 00:41:51,509 --> 00:41:53,261 -God, what beautiful eyes you have. -Thank you. 868 00:41:53,344 --> 00:41:55,680 So Dennis took Charles out of the house, 869 00:41:55,763 --> 00:41:57,140 and what happened? 870 00:41:57,223 --> 00:42:00,476 [Roach] Dennis thought he could give him $300 for a song 871 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,603 and Charlie just It would disappear, you know? 872 00:42:02,687 --> 00:42:05,231 It was not the most conducive way to meet a guy 873 00:42:05,314 --> 00:42:07,275 that I probably would have offered so many women 874 00:42:07,358 --> 00:42:10,486 that I would have given up to my wife and... [laughs] 875 00:42:10,945 --> 00:42:13,531 You know, God Only Knows. 876 00:42:13,614 --> 00:42:17,160 [Sophia] How were all these musicians so good with someone so scary? 877 00:42:18,202 --> 00:42:21,748 You know, women a little made it easier 878 00:42:21,831 --> 00:42:24,375 accept how scary he was. 879 00:42:24,459 --> 00:42:26,335 I mean, I looked at women then, 880 00:42:26,419 --> 00:42:28,379 and I was thinking, "God, Dennis, what's wrong with you? 881 00:42:28,463 --> 00:42:30,298 I would never fuck a woman that young." 882 00:42:30,381 --> 00:42:33,217 But I look at them now and think: "God, I'd love to fuck you." 883 00:42:33,301 --> 00:42:35,595 I'm just kidding. Just kidding, babe. 884 00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:37,764 I wish we had a fan. 885 00:42:37,847 --> 00:42:40,308 [Allie, co-director] It's just because of the noise, but we could... 886 00:42:40,391 --> 00:42:41,684 Well, okay. No, to hell. 887 00:42:41,768 --> 00:42:42,852 We can survive, right? 888 00:42:42,935 --> 00:42:44,145 Yes, we can do it. 889 00:42:44,228 --> 00:42:46,230 -It won't be the last time we sweat together. -Yes... 890 00:42:46,314 --> 00:42:48,191 [Roach] Hey, really? [sly laughter] 891 00:42:48,274 --> 00:42:49,567 We can do this. 892 00:42:49,650 --> 00:42:52,028 [Roach] I think I got a commitment, gentlemen. Record it. 893 00:42:52,111 --> 00:42:54,447 [Allie] No, no, no. No way. 894 00:42:54,530 --> 00:42:55,531 [Roach] Gosh, you... 895 00:42:55,615 --> 00:42:57,241 ♪♪ 896 00:42:57,325 --> 00:42:59,118 -Well, thanks for... -[Roach] You're welcome. 897 00:42:59,202 --> 00:43:00,328 ...tell me these stories. 898 00:43:00,411 --> 00:43:02,205 -I have a lot to think about. -[Roach] You're welcome. I say... 899 00:43:02,288 --> 00:43:04,040 -[Sophia] Yes. -I like doing it. 900 00:43:04,123 --> 00:43:05,249 -Yes, thank you very much. -You are welcome. 901 00:43:05,333 --> 00:43:07,835 I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. 902 00:43:10,505 --> 00:43:11,756 [exhales] Great. 903 00:43:11,839 --> 00:43:12,924 [Roach] Great! 904 00:43:13,508 --> 00:43:15,009 Who's going to buy me a beer? 905 00:43:21,724 --> 00:43:23,434 He is one of the most disgusting people 906 00:43:23,518 --> 00:43:25,228 with whom I ever spoke. 907 00:43:28,231 --> 00:43:31,692 How naive to think that I could try to take a positive turn 908 00:43:31,776 --> 00:43:34,487 to the friendship of my grandfather with The Beach Boys 909 00:43:34,570 --> 00:43:36,948 and being an artist. 910 00:43:37,031 --> 00:43:38,449 [sniffs nose] 911 00:43:39,534 --> 00:43:42,745 But they're all fucking pigs. They are all disgusting. 912 00:43:44,539 --> 00:43:45,998 [water running] 913 00:43:46,082 --> 00:43:48,042 [♪ melancholic music plays] 914 00:43:57,093 --> 00:43:58,761 [ringing tone] 915 00:44:03,432 --> 00:44:05,685 [ring tone continues] 916 00:44:06,060 --> 00:44:08,521 Every time I ask my dad that is present 917 00:44:08,604 --> 00:44:11,232 In an interview or filming, he... 918 00:44:11,941 --> 00:44:13,734 completely... 919 00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:17,864 It destabilizes me mentally. 920 00:44:17,947 --> 00:44:20,116 [ringing tone] 921 00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:23,369 [Daniel] [voicemail] Hello. I'm Dan. Please let... 922 00:44:24,245 --> 00:44:27,248 [Sophia] She says she doesn't want to be there, who doesn't want to do it, 923 00:44:27,331 --> 00:44:30,126 I don't want to hear anything He doesn't want to know anything. 924 00:44:30,835 --> 00:44:34,797 I literally grew up with my dad telling me what I wish 925 00:44:34,881 --> 00:44:37,049 know who his father was. 926 00:44:37,133 --> 00:44:40,219 So all I try to do is to find out who his father is, 927 00:44:40,303 --> 00:44:41,762 so I can know. 928 00:44:42,138 --> 00:44:44,307 And he tells me everything, and hangs up the phone on me, 929 00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:46,184 and he doesn't want to be on set. 930 00:44:48,477 --> 00:44:50,771 [♪ somber music plays] 931 00:44:58,696 --> 00:45:02,450 But if I want to understand what aspects of my grandfather 932 00:45:02,533 --> 00:45:04,869 we could have inherited my father and I... 933 00:45:06,621 --> 00:45:11,918 I need to know exactly what drove to the family massacres of 1969. 934 00:45:14,879 --> 00:45:20,551 I was awake until 2:00 in the morning reading transcripts and... 935 00:45:21,677 --> 00:45:23,888 doing an intensive course, reviewing everything I've read. 936 00:45:25,097 --> 00:45:26,974 And the further you go, 937 00:45:27,058 --> 00:45:29,227 the more confusing it gets. 938 00:45:29,977 --> 00:45:32,271 ♪♪ 939 00:45:34,857 --> 00:45:36,442 [sobs] 940 00:45:39,862 --> 00:45:43,866 I'm not my grandfather. I'm not my dad. 941 00:45:43,950 --> 00:45:45,826 I'm not going to self-sabotage. 942 00:45:47,328 --> 00:45:49,038 [Sophia exhales deeply] 943 00:45:50,248 --> 00:45:52,041 I'm not my grandfather. 944 00:45:52,458 --> 00:45:54,126 I'm not my dad. [sniffs nose] 945 00:45:54,210 --> 00:45:55,836 And I'm not going to self-sabotage. 946 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,547 [Allie, co-director] You won't. 947 00:45:58,631 --> 00:46:00,091 You know that, right? 948 00:46:01,133 --> 00:46:02,260 Yes. 949 00:46:03,135 --> 00:46:05,554 Do you think someone Did he say that to Charlie? 950 00:46:05,638 --> 00:46:07,723 [Allie] No... 951 00:46:07,807 --> 00:46:09,600 But your life is different. 952 00:46:11,894 --> 00:46:13,813 [Allie] Okay, take one. AV brand. 953 00:46:13,896 --> 00:46:14,897 [clack] 954 00:46:15,606 --> 00:46:16,691 -[Sophia] Hello. -Hello. [laughs] 955 00:46:16,774 --> 00:46:17,817 Finally. Sophia. 956 00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:19,485 -Hello, Sophia. I'm Steve. -Nice to meet you. 957 00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:20,945 Now I can shake his hand. 958 00:46:21,028 --> 00:46:22,029 [both laugh] 959 00:46:22,113 --> 00:46:24,740 Hey, I just wanted to clarify. 960 00:46:24,824 --> 00:46:27,952 because you asked me before how I got to this project. 961 00:46:28,035 --> 00:46:29,161 FORMER DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY 962 00:46:29,245 --> 00:46:31,831 Three years ago I discovered that Charles Manson was my grandfather. 963 00:46:32,832 --> 00:46:34,542 I think we talked on the phone. 964 00:46:34,625 --> 00:46:37,086 I had already mentioned it. I just wanted to remind you. 965 00:46:37,169 --> 00:46:41,257 And I have to tell you that the reason why I didn't return your calls 966 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:44,844 when you identified yourself, It was because I thought, "Oh, my. 967 00:46:44,927 --> 00:46:48,014 This person is going to be a defender of Charles Manson." 968 00:46:48,097 --> 00:46:50,391 It's a... it's a delicate topic. 969 00:46:50,474 --> 00:46:54,812 If I try to understand these people, 970 00:46:54,895 --> 00:46:58,441 It's very easy for people to accuse me. to be a defender of him. 971 00:46:59,150 --> 00:47:00,568 All I want is to learn. 972 00:47:00,651 --> 00:47:02,820 Well let me tell you that I know these people 973 00:47:02,903 --> 00:47:04,488 probably better than anyone else. 974 00:47:04,864 --> 00:47:08,075 I prosecuted four of the cases of the Tate-LaBianca murders. 975 00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:09,702 The case of Hinman and Shea. 976 00:47:10,036 --> 00:47:13,539 Sixty parole hearings for those accused of the five murders. 977 00:47:13,622 --> 00:47:16,500 I have been threatened with death por Manson en tres ocasiones. 978 00:47:16,584 --> 00:47:18,419 I have been threatened for "Squeaky" and "Sandy." 979 00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:21,756 Así que conozco a estas personas. I know what moves them. 980 00:47:22,423 --> 00:47:25,343 You know, what became to the mediocre fraudster 981 00:47:25,426 --> 00:47:28,554 in a murderer, huh, 982 00:47:28,637 --> 00:47:30,848 I have my theories about that. 983 00:47:31,307 --> 00:47:33,601 Manson, when he was in prison, 984 00:47:33,684 --> 00:47:36,562 I thought that black people They were more united than the whites. 985 00:47:36,645 --> 00:47:39,148 He thought they were going to take control. 986 00:47:39,231 --> 00:47:44,070 In June 1969, He told his followers: 987 00:47:44,153 --> 00:47:46,864 "We'll have to show him to black people how to do it. 988 00:47:46,947 --> 00:47:50,284 Manson just became obsessed 989 00:47:50,368 --> 00:47:53,204 with the idea of a race war. 990 00:47:53,621 --> 00:47:56,665 Tenía una ametralladora montada en un buggy arenero. 991 00:47:56,749 --> 00:48:00,419 He had a weapons room on the ranch. It had a rocket launcher. 992 00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:03,130 Manson was preparing for war. 993 00:48:03,214 --> 00:48:06,050 ♪♪ 994 00:48:09,762 --> 00:48:11,597 [Sophia] I know many things they are going wrong 995 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,182 for my grandfather that spring. 996 00:48:13,557 --> 00:48:16,602 His musical career failed. He's desperate for money. 997 00:48:16,977 --> 00:48:20,398 But what would make him want start an all out race war? 998 00:48:20,481 --> 00:48:22,525 [Melnick] I would like to challenge Bugliosi 999 00:48:22,608 --> 00:48:23,859 in this idea that you have 1000 00:48:23,943 --> 00:48:26,487 of Manson from the beginning, like he had a whole plan 1001 00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:29,281 regarding starting a race war which he called Helter Skelter. 1002 00:48:29,365 --> 00:48:30,449 I don't believe it. 1003 00:48:30,533 --> 00:48:32,618 I think that, ultimately, what changes is 1004 00:48:32,701 --> 00:48:34,245 Charlie's mental health. 1005 00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,081 [Sophia] So when started going downhill? 1006 00:48:37,164 --> 00:48:39,208 [Lake] Well it was getting really frenetic 1007 00:48:39,291 --> 00:48:42,128 about going into survival mode. 1008 00:48:42,211 --> 00:48:45,381 We were trying to make money to go to the desert, 1009 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,425 to Barker Ranch. 1010 00:48:47,508 --> 00:48:50,344 And they stole Volkswagen cars 1011 00:48:50,428 --> 00:48:52,346 to convert them into sand dune buggies. 1012 00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:56,100 The Straight Satans were a motorcycle gang from Simi Valley. 1013 00:48:56,183 --> 00:48:57,852 They began to come, 1014 00:48:57,935 --> 00:49:01,105 and I think Charlie kinda encouraged that 1015 00:49:01,188 --> 00:49:03,065 because they offered protection, 1016 00:49:03,149 --> 00:49:05,276 and knives appeared at the scene. 1017 00:49:06,152 --> 00:49:07,445 Arms. 1018 00:49:07,862 --> 00:49:10,448 And "Tex" appeared on the scene. 1019 00:49:11,449 --> 00:49:14,118 He had been a trafficker of drugs in Hollywood. 1020 00:49:14,618 --> 00:49:18,289 He definitely brought amphetamines. higher level or whatever. 1021 00:49:18,873 --> 00:49:21,959 We, as a Family, smoked marijuana very regularly. 1022 00:49:22,042 --> 00:49:23,794 We used LSD very regularly. 1023 00:49:23,878 --> 00:49:27,673 But regarding other drugs, As a Family, we did not consume them. 1024 00:49:28,215 --> 00:49:29,216 "Tex" did it. 1025 00:49:31,010 --> 00:49:33,888 [Sophia] Part of the documentary, It's me dealing with my dad, 1026 00:49:33,971 --> 00:49:37,892 be the daughter of someone who could have some mental health issues too. 1027 00:49:38,601 --> 00:49:42,938 My dad's health is deteriorating a lot. when he gets stressed, 1028 00:49:43,731 --> 00:49:45,941 and it's actually fucking bad. 1029 00:49:46,025 --> 00:49:47,818 I am like a disowned daughter. 1030 00:49:48,486 --> 00:49:50,905 When "Tex" Watson enter the scene, 1031 00:49:50,988 --> 00:49:53,824 Things seem to be going downhill. 1032 00:49:53,908 --> 00:49:57,786 And I feel that some of what not talked about enough is "Tex" Watson 1033 00:49:57,870 --> 00:50:00,498 who massacred everyone those people, the majority. 1034 00:50:00,581 --> 00:50:03,667 For all that talk about Manson He was able to control anyone, 1035 00:50:03,751 --> 00:50:05,169 hypnoti... brainwash them, 1036 00:50:05,252 --> 00:50:08,088 I don't think I had "Tex" Watson under his control. 1037 00:50:12,051 --> 00:50:13,469 [Sophia] Because being Mason's blood, 1038 00:50:13,552 --> 00:50:16,847 I was able to get a meeting with George Stimson, 1039 00:50:16,931 --> 00:50:19,266 a connected source with key events 1040 00:50:19,350 --> 00:50:23,145 between "Tex" and my grandfather prior to the murders. 1041 00:50:23,229 --> 00:50:26,190 Is it okay if I ask you about your relationship with "Blue"? 1042 00:50:26,732 --> 00:50:30,569 My partner for more than 30 years. 1043 00:50:30,653 --> 00:50:32,821 [interviewer] If it were up to you today, 1044 00:50:32,905 --> 00:50:34,406 Where would Charles Manson be? 1045 00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:36,492 He would be at the United Nations. 1046 00:50:36,575 --> 00:50:40,371 I have absolute respect for him. He doesn't lie. 1047 00:50:40,454 --> 00:50:43,249 [George Stimson] Sandra Good, "Blue" convinced me to wear 1048 00:50:43,332 --> 00:50:45,292 at your service, and that's what I did. 1049 00:50:45,376 --> 00:50:47,711 I visited him almost 200 times in prison. 1050 00:50:47,795 --> 00:50:49,004 I wrote a book about him. 1051 00:50:49,088 --> 00:50:53,384 And I've only been intertwined with him since 1990. 1052 00:50:54,343 --> 00:50:58,055 What led to the murders from Waverly and Cielo Drive? 1053 00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:01,016 They were the culmination of a series of criminal incidents 1054 00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:03,769 which began on July 1, 1969 1055 00:51:04,311 --> 00:51:06,647 when Charles "Tex" Watson scammed 1056 00:51:06,730 --> 00:51:09,191 to the marijuana dealer, Bernard Crowe. 1057 00:51:09,275 --> 00:51:11,110 He took the money and fled. 1058 00:51:11,193 --> 00:51:12,278 Crowe wasn't going to tolerate that. 1059 00:51:12,361 --> 00:51:15,114 He wanted his money and to all those involved in it. 1060 00:51:15,197 --> 00:51:17,074 He was not reasonable at all. 1061 00:51:17,157 --> 00:51:18,951 "Tex" has a little problem. He had a little problem. 1062 00:51:19,034 --> 00:51:20,411 He gives me a gun. He can't do it 1063 00:51:20,494 --> 00:51:22,121 I have to go deal with your problem. 1064 00:51:22,204 --> 00:51:23,247 [Charlie Rose] Which one is it? 1065 00:51:23,330 --> 00:51:25,583 I have to go shoot someone for him. 1066 00:51:25,666 --> 00:51:28,043 -[Charlie Rose] Who? -Hey, I had to shoot "Lotsapoppa." 1067 00:51:28,127 --> 00:51:30,796 [Stimson] Charlie thought he was dead, and said to "Tex" Watson: 1068 00:51:30,879 --> 00:51:34,008 "I killed this guy for you. You owe me a favor. 1069 00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:36,093 "And when the time comes to collect the favor, 1070 00:51:36,176 --> 00:51:37,261 "You're going to pay for it." 1071 00:51:38,178 --> 00:51:40,931 [Sophia] That's where I feel like His mental health begins to deteriorate, 1072 00:51:41,015 --> 00:51:44,059 It's that level of stress of saying: "Shit, I just killed a guy." 1073 00:51:44,143 --> 00:51:45,811 He thinks he killed him. 1074 00:51:45,894 --> 00:51:48,689 Because it led to a chain of events that destroyed everything. 1075 00:51:49,231 --> 00:51:50,232 What happened? 1076 00:51:50,316 --> 00:51:53,277 [Stimson] Bobby Beausoleil got into the mescaline business 1077 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,030 between Gary Hinman and the Straight Satans. 1078 00:51:56,655 --> 00:51:58,490 Bobby killed Gary Hinman. 1079 00:51:58,574 --> 00:51:59,992 A week after the murder, 1080 00:52:00,075 --> 00:52:03,203 Bobby Beausoleil was arrested driving Gary Hinman's car. 1081 00:52:03,287 --> 00:52:06,290 I can't leave you in jail to someone who is with me. 1082 00:52:06,373 --> 00:52:08,626 It's not... You know, I'm not built like that, friend. 1083 00:52:08,709 --> 00:52:10,336 I have to take my brother out from jail. 1084 00:52:10,878 --> 00:52:12,963 [Sophia] Charlie Manson goes with "Tex" Watson 1085 00:52:13,047 --> 00:52:15,591 and says, "Get a brother out of jail." 1086 00:52:15,674 --> 00:52:18,469 Yes, it is a pay situation. Underworld thing. 1087 00:52:18,552 --> 00:52:20,471 They are favors due and favors paid. 1088 00:52:20,554 --> 00:52:25,017 "I want Bobby out of prison. "You owe me for killing Crowe." 1089 00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:27,144 However you have to do it, do it. 1090 00:52:27,227 --> 00:52:29,355 I don't care how you do it, Just don't involve me. 1091 00:52:29,438 --> 00:52:34,735 [Stimson] So "Tex" Watson, He goes and commits some heinous murders. 1092 00:52:34,818 --> 00:52:38,238 with the intention of appearing that Bobby Beausoleil was not the murderer. 1093 00:52:38,322 --> 00:52:40,240 TATE CRIME SCENE HINMAN CRIME SCENE 1094 00:52:40,324 --> 00:52:43,035 That the murderer of Gary Hinman he was still free. 1095 00:52:43,118 --> 00:52:46,997 Followers want to change the script of what really happened. 1096 00:52:47,081 --> 00:52:48,374 ♪♪ 1097 00:52:48,457 --> 00:52:50,793 Manson didn't care Bobby Beausoleil. 1098 00:52:50,876 --> 00:52:54,838 He was an inconsistent member of the family. 1099 00:52:54,922 --> 00:52:58,759 It has been speculated that Gary Hinman was a drug dealer. 1100 00:52:58,842 --> 00:52:59,843 It wasn't. 1101 00:52:59,927 --> 00:53:02,054 Manson took Watson aside 1102 00:53:02,137 --> 00:53:05,099 and told him: "Kill everyone there." 1103 00:53:05,182 --> 00:53:08,143 And he said to the girls: "Well, Watson knows the plan, 1104 00:53:08,227 --> 00:53:10,813 so do whatever that 'Tex' tells them." 1105 00:53:11,522 --> 00:53:13,524 [Sophia] "Tex" described the scene himself. 1106 00:53:13,607 --> 00:53:16,819 "We take a lot of amphetamine, especially Sadie and me. 1107 00:53:16,902 --> 00:53:18,070 "She was crazy on amphetamine, 1108 00:53:18,153 --> 00:53:20,364 "and we were very high the night of the Tate murders. 1109 00:53:20,739 --> 00:53:23,283 "It was a private reserve and Charlie didn't know anything about her. 1110 00:53:23,367 --> 00:53:24,618 "He wouldn't have liked it." 1111 00:53:25,285 --> 00:53:27,705 [Stephen Kay] They drove to the front gate. 1112 00:53:27,788 --> 00:53:31,375 Watson came out and cut telephone cables 1113 00:53:31,458 --> 00:53:33,502 because I didn't want anyone to knock outside. 1114 00:53:33,585 --> 00:53:35,629 [Sophia] "Tex" Watson, Susan Atkins, 1115 00:53:35,713 --> 00:53:37,881 Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Kasabian. 1116 00:53:37,965 --> 00:53:39,800 They entered the Tate residence 1117 00:53:40,426 --> 00:53:42,010 and they committed a massacre. 1118 00:53:42,094 --> 00:53:43,137 [camera snap] 1119 00:53:43,220 --> 00:53:45,597 "Tex" Watson shot Steven Parent. 1120 00:53:47,015 --> 00:53:50,018 [Kay] Wojciech Frykowski I slept on the couch. 1121 00:53:50,102 --> 00:53:52,271 Watson woke him up at gunpoint 1122 00:53:52,354 --> 00:53:55,816 and told him it was the devil who came to do the devil's work. 1123 00:53:56,817 --> 00:53:59,570 [Sophia] "He tied up Folger, Sebring and Sharon 1124 00:53:59,653 --> 00:54:01,238 before stabbing them to death." 1125 00:54:01,321 --> 00:54:02,322 [camera snap] 1126 00:54:02,406 --> 00:54:04,450 Question: "How do you feel "About what you did?" 1127 00:54:04,533 --> 00:54:08,620 Answer: "It was fun destroy Tate's house, okay?" 1128 00:54:08,704 --> 00:54:10,831 Question: "Was it fun?" 1129 00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:13,500 Answer: "You should have seen it. 1130 00:54:13,584 --> 00:54:16,170 People were running around like headless chickens." 1131 00:54:16,837 --> 00:54:18,213 "The defendant is laughing." 1132 00:54:19,506 --> 00:54:22,176 [Kay] Sharon Tate has eight and a half months pregnant. 1133 00:54:22,259 --> 00:54:24,344 Susan Atkins looked at her and said: 1134 00:54:25,179 --> 00:54:27,806 "Look, bitch, I don't care about you or your baby. 1135 00:54:27,890 --> 00:54:30,559 "You're going to die, and you better be ready for it. 1136 00:54:30,642 --> 00:54:32,269 And I feel absolutely nothing." 1137 00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:37,691 And then, Susan Atkins He proceeded to stab her 16 times. 1138 00:54:37,775 --> 00:54:41,487 And then Watson came and hung her up 1139 00:54:41,570 --> 00:54:46,325 of a beam crossing the room. 1140 00:54:47,075 --> 00:54:50,162 The coroner said she was still alive. when she was hanged. 1141 00:54:50,245 --> 00:54:53,207 [Sophia] They are simply telling these crazy people 1142 00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:56,710 of amphetamines, speed, belladonna, acid: 1143 00:54:56,794 --> 00:54:57,920 "Take care of something." 1144 00:54:58,003 --> 00:55:01,089 -What did you expect? -He does not live in expectation. 1145 00:55:01,548 --> 00:55:03,050 He stirred the hornet's nest. 1146 00:55:05,219 --> 00:55:06,929 He told them to do something. 1147 00:55:07,763 --> 00:55:09,640 He didn't foresee it that way. 1148 00:55:09,723 --> 00:55:11,934 ♪♪ 1149 00:55:14,186 --> 00:55:17,606 [Sophia] The next night of murders, Charlie becomes more involved. 1150 00:55:18,649 --> 00:55:22,277 It's been hard to get my dad to listen about his father's guilt. 1151 00:55:22,361 --> 00:55:25,030 -[Daniel] Jessica. Nice to see you. -[cameraman] Your dad is here. 1152 00:55:25,489 --> 00:55:27,491 [Sophia] Yes, obviously. [laughs] 1153 00:55:27,574 --> 00:55:29,117 [Daniel speaking interchangeably] 1154 00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:31,787 But he agreed to meet with Nikolas Schreck, 1155 00:55:32,287 --> 00:55:35,624 a friend of charlie who spent decades defending it. 1156 00:55:35,707 --> 00:55:38,335 Charlie told Nik about the night of the murder. 1157 00:55:38,418 --> 00:55:40,671 I wouldn't be doing this if you hadn't told me every night 1158 00:55:40,754 --> 00:55:42,714 when I went to bed, what did you want to know? who was your father 1159 00:55:42,798 --> 00:55:45,133 Hello, I'm Nikolas. Nice to meet you. 1160 00:55:45,217 --> 00:55:47,010 [whispers] Was he [Nik Schreck] there? 1161 00:55:48,136 --> 00:55:49,137 He is a researcher. 1162 00:55:49,221 --> 00:55:53,141 He spent 30 years chatting with grandfather. He was a good friend of your dad, and... 1163 00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:59,773 And then, let's talk about what was guilty, 1164 00:56:00,524 --> 00:56:03,068 which he was guilty of because I think... 1165 00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:05,946 that there is something we should know. 1166 00:56:06,029 --> 00:56:07,948 Well... this... 1167 00:56:08,031 --> 00:56:10,409 To begin with, it's just your opinion. 1168 00:56:10,492 --> 00:56:13,662 It is not the highest authority. 1169 00:56:14,663 --> 00:56:15,831 He doesn't know everything. 1170 00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:17,332 Who do you think is? 1171 00:56:18,125 --> 00:56:19,209 God. 1172 00:56:19,293 --> 00:56:20,711 [Sophia laughs softly] 1173 00:56:22,963 --> 00:56:23,964 [Sophia] Rolling? 1174 00:56:24,047 --> 00:56:25,299 [production] Yes. 1175 00:56:25,382 --> 00:56:27,426 ♪♪ 1176 00:56:28,343 --> 00:56:30,178 I know you don't want to be here when I talk about it, 1177 00:56:30,262 --> 00:56:33,098 but I think we should talk about what he is guilty of 1178 00:56:33,181 --> 00:56:35,976 and what he has done. 1179 00:56:36,059 --> 00:56:38,520 Because I don't want to smooth things over, and I want... 1180 00:56:38,604 --> 00:56:40,856 Well when you say, what charlie is guilty of 1181 00:56:40,939 --> 00:56:45,444 Regarding his criminality: theft, car theft. 1182 00:56:45,986 --> 00:56:48,530 He constantly stole raid. 1183 00:56:48,614 --> 00:56:50,240 That came naturally to him. 1184 00:56:50,616 --> 00:56:52,492 He was always looking for money. 1185 00:56:54,077 --> 00:56:57,289 In terms of the most famous phase of his career, 1186 00:56:57,372 --> 00:56:59,666 his involvement with Cielo Drive, 1187 00:56:59,750 --> 00:57:02,961 I don't think Manson He was guilty of murder. 1188 00:57:03,045 --> 00:57:06,089 It was "Tex" Watson's idea. and Linda Kasabian. 1189 00:57:06,173 --> 00:57:10,260 Did Manson deny telling Watson Was he going to kill people or not? 1190 00:57:10,344 --> 00:57:13,138 [Nik] Yes, he denied it, but It doesn't mean that's the truth. 1191 00:57:13,221 --> 00:57:14,932 They returned to the ranch, 1192 00:57:15,015 --> 00:57:17,017 and the way Charlie described it to me: 1193 00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:19,478 He saw them return with blood. 1194 00:57:19,561 --> 00:57:22,147 Susan Atkins comes home to you with bloody hands. 1195 00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:23,231 Yes. 1196 00:57:23,315 --> 00:57:24,942 She says: "Charlie, look what I did for you." 1197 00:57:25,025 --> 00:57:27,527 -Yeah. "So I gave you the world." -I gave you the... 1198 00:57:27,611 --> 00:57:29,738 "I myself killed and I gave you the world." 1199 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:31,490 And what was your reaction? 1200 00:57:31,573 --> 00:57:33,408 I said, "Stupid motherfucker, I already had the world. 1201 00:57:33,492 --> 00:57:35,202 “You just put me back in jail.” 1202 00:57:35,285 --> 00:57:39,790 [Schreck] So it was a disaster that They would have killed a minor celebrity. 1203 00:57:39,873 --> 00:57:43,126 And he is terrified because he is on parole 1204 00:57:43,210 --> 00:57:46,546 thinking: "These beginners They drag me back to prison." 1205 00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:48,590 Because he knew this would fall on him. 1206 00:57:49,383 --> 00:57:52,219 And he told me never He had been so terrified in his life. 1207 00:57:52,302 --> 00:57:54,388 despite all things what he had gone through. 1208 00:57:54,888 --> 00:57:56,974 Now, the next night, the LaBiancas, 1209 00:57:57,057 --> 00:57:59,393 went to the LaBianca house 1210 00:57:59,476 --> 00:58:02,437 and took money from Leno LaBianca, a large amount of money. 1211 00:58:02,521 --> 00:58:03,647 He admitted that. 1212 00:58:04,731 --> 00:58:06,692 [presenter] One day later, nine kilometers away, 1213 00:58:06,775 --> 00:58:09,319 there was another homicide in the same brutal way. 1214 00:58:09,987 --> 00:58:12,322 [host 2] Leno LaBianca, a supermarket owner, 1215 00:58:12,406 --> 00:58:15,033 and his wife have been both stabbed to death, 1216 00:58:15,117 --> 00:58:16,618 repeated stab wounds. 1217 00:58:16,702 --> 00:58:20,664 In his body, the word "war" carved on the chest. 1218 00:58:20,747 --> 00:58:23,125 Then, with blood, the murderer had scribbled 1219 00:58:23,208 --> 00:58:25,460 the phrase "death to pigs." 1220 00:58:25,919 --> 00:58:27,295 [Schreck] Uh... 1221 00:58:27,379 --> 00:58:30,841 He was guilty of having entered the LaBianca house 1222 00:58:30,924 --> 00:58:32,551 and steal them, 1223 00:58:32,634 --> 00:58:35,470 what makes you guilty, technically. 1224 00:58:36,138 --> 00:58:37,472 He didn't kill them. 1225 00:58:37,556 --> 00:58:39,391 Do you think that happened? What went to the crime scene? 1226 00:58:39,474 --> 00:58:41,351 I don't believe a word of anything. 1227 00:58:41,435 --> 00:58:44,021 If you're going to take the implication 1228 00:58:44,104 --> 00:58:47,524 that Charlie was involved, yes, agree. 1229 00:58:47,607 --> 00:58:51,570 But every person who was in Charlie's cult at the beginning, 1230 00:58:51,653 --> 00:58:53,655 -the... the first... -It was not a sect. 1231 00:58:53,739 --> 00:58:58,285 Each person was arrested minimum four times before meeting Charlie. 1232 00:58:58,368 --> 00:58:59,578 Yes, they were criminals. 1233 00:58:59,661 --> 00:59:01,329 And the four were released. 1234 00:59:01,413 --> 00:59:04,332 I'm telling you, this was a series of sordid murders 1235 00:59:04,416 --> 00:59:07,836 of gangs involving motorcyclists and drug dealers. 1236 00:59:07,919 --> 00:59:10,672 With all respect, I think the people who made this 1237 00:59:10,756 --> 00:59:14,051 They are Manson's people of the entertainment industry. 1238 00:59:14,134 --> 00:59:16,511 They don't really know everything... 1239 00:59:16,595 --> 00:59:19,473 So do you question everything your father said? 1240 00:59:20,182 --> 00:59:21,183 Yes. 1241 00:59:21,266 --> 00:59:22,517 This is where we have to differ. 1242 00:59:22,601 --> 00:59:24,936 If you doubt that your father have told the truth 1243 00:59:25,020 --> 00:59:27,522 About these things, well, he did. 1244 00:59:27,606 --> 00:59:30,734 And I talked to him for years, testing him, interrogating him. 1245 00:59:30,817 --> 00:59:36,198 In my opinion, I think it's still necessary, huh... 1246 00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:38,450 publish things, more information. 1247 00:59:38,533 --> 00:59:40,368 And, uh, you know... 1248 00:59:40,452 --> 00:59:42,662 I don't doubt that things are being hidden. 1249 00:59:42,746 --> 00:59:44,956 No, the fact that they had to get to 1250 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,959 the president of the United States and he said: 1251 00:59:48,043 --> 00:59:49,503 "Manson is guilty of murder." 1252 00:59:49,586 --> 00:59:51,088 NIXON'S VOICE WATERGATE RECORDINGS 1253 00:59:51,171 --> 00:59:53,381 I will never forget that too They were worried about the Manson case. 1254 00:59:53,465 --> 00:59:55,801 I knew exactly what we were doing with Manson. 1255 00:59:55,884 --> 00:59:57,844 You have to win some things in the press. 1256 00:59:57,928 --> 01:00:00,222 He tells you it was an operation. 1257 01:00:00,305 --> 01:00:01,348 [Schreck] I understand that. 1258 01:00:01,431 --> 01:00:04,476 I just don't think that's relevant. for these particular crimes. 1259 01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:05,727 -That's all. -[Daniel] Well, I do. 1260 01:00:05,811 --> 01:00:08,438 The whole thing is a disaster and it's a lie. 1261 01:00:08,522 --> 01:00:09,689 The whole thing is a lie. 1262 01:00:09,773 --> 01:00:12,776 You're caught in the biggest lie in the history of lies. 1263 01:00:12,859 --> 01:00:15,070 -Well, thank you very much. -Alright. Thank you. 1264 01:00:20,117 --> 01:00:21,118 [door opens] 1265 01:00:21,201 --> 01:00:22,410 [Allie] Is everything okay? 1266 01:00:22,494 --> 01:00:23,537 [Daniel clears his throat] 1267 01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:25,372 [Schreck] Wasn't it what you expected? 1268 01:00:26,623 --> 01:00:29,209 [♪ melancholic music plays] 1269 01:00:30,752 --> 01:00:32,879 [Sophia] I hoped my dad could... 1270 01:00:34,047 --> 01:00:35,674 listen to Nik. 1271 01:00:36,466 --> 01:00:38,760 Maybe you think that He has inherited some evil. 1272 01:00:38,844 --> 01:00:41,096 He doesn't want to believe that his dad is like that. 1273 01:00:43,014 --> 01:00:44,641 The more I learn, the more... 1274 01:00:44,724 --> 01:00:47,269 the more I realize I don't really have a family. 1275 01:00:47,894 --> 01:00:50,105 I couldn't depend from my dad today. 1276 01:00:50,647 --> 01:00:52,816 I'm so fucking alone. 1277 01:00:53,191 --> 01:00:55,527 [♪ somber music plays] 1278 01:00:59,531 --> 01:01:01,700 It's hard but now I can't go back. 1279 01:01:02,367 --> 01:01:03,535 I faced the homicides, 1280 01:01:04,369 --> 01:01:07,205 but it is the judgment that cements my grandfather's legacy. 1281 01:01:07,289 --> 01:01:08,707 [presenter] All elements are given 1282 01:01:08,790 --> 01:01:12,169 for one of the murder trials most sensational in the history of the country. 1283 01:01:12,252 --> 01:01:15,672 [Sophia] And convince my grandmother that his 10 year old son is evil. 1284 01:01:15,755 --> 01:01:18,800 [presenter] Young girls, supposedly under the spell of a bearded Svengali, 1285 01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:21,386 who allegedly orchestrated the seven murders. 1286 01:01:21,469 --> 01:01:23,388 The Manson trial is a circus. 1287 01:01:23,471 --> 01:01:25,390 I mean, it's crazy. 1288 01:01:25,473 --> 01:01:28,935 [presenter] Lawyers who never had been heard now they are heard. 1289 01:01:29,019 --> 01:01:31,396 [Bugliosi] Manson was looking for detonate a Helter Skelter, 1290 01:01:31,479 --> 01:01:33,148 start a race war black-white 1291 01:01:33,231 --> 01:01:35,400 making it seem that black people had murdered 1292 01:01:35,483 --> 01:01:37,068 to seven Caucasian victims. 1293 01:01:37,152 --> 01:01:40,906 [Melnick] Los Angeles had had a very devastating race riot, 1294 01:01:40,989 --> 01:01:42,574 then a prosecutor came out 1295 01:01:42,657 --> 01:01:44,743 to say, something like, this strange short hippie 1296 01:01:44,826 --> 01:01:47,495 try to start a race war, it's like he found 1297 01:01:47,579 --> 01:01:49,206 his [snaps finger] lightbulb moment. 1298 01:01:49,289 --> 01:01:51,708 [Bugliosi] Manson told his followers that this would be a massacre 1299 01:01:51,791 --> 01:01:55,086 and what happened on these two nights You don't even see it in a horror movie. 1300 01:01:55,170 --> 01:01:57,297 Do you believe in the narrative from Helter Skelter? 1301 01:01:57,380 --> 01:01:58,381 No. 1302 01:01:58,465 --> 01:02:01,801 Many people have said that Manson spoke of a race war, 1303 01:02:01,885 --> 01:02:03,011 that this was imminent. 1304 01:02:03,094 --> 01:02:05,013 But aside from Linda Kasabian, 1305 01:02:05,096 --> 01:02:08,600 I couldn't find anyone to say that he wanted to start it. 1306 01:02:08,683 --> 01:02:10,894 Can you talk about your immunity agreement? 1307 01:02:10,977 --> 01:02:13,939 [Kay] The prosecution focused in Linda Kasabian 1308 01:02:14,022 --> 01:02:15,732 Who was the getaway driver? 1309 01:02:15,815 --> 01:02:18,276 but did not physically participate in the murders. 1310 01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,987 His lawyer said that if she was going to testify, 1311 01:02:21,071 --> 01:02:22,948 he had to be granted full immunity. 1312 01:02:23,031 --> 01:02:27,202 Linda Kasabian was on the stand for weeks, 1313 01:02:27,285 --> 01:02:29,496 and the jury, they believed him. 1314 01:02:29,579 --> 01:02:32,791 I don't like all this chaos or however you say it. 1315 01:02:32,874 --> 01:02:34,292 [♪ intense music plays] 1316 01:02:34,376 --> 01:02:38,922 [all singing in English] 1317 01:02:39,005 --> 01:02:42,050 I think there is a kind of turn during the trial. 1318 01:02:42,467 --> 01:02:44,886 And women are so peculiar. 1319 01:02:44,970 --> 01:02:47,138 [presenter] They have been on this corner for almost five months, 1320 01:02:47,222 --> 01:02:49,891 and they promise to be here until Charlie is free. 1321 01:02:49,975 --> 01:02:52,352 [Melnick] The girls come out to literally crawl 1322 01:02:52,435 --> 01:02:54,104 through the streets of Los Angeles. 1323 01:02:54,187 --> 01:02:57,482 They are acting outside the trial. 1324 01:02:58,066 --> 01:02:59,985 They really try to show 1325 01:03:00,068 --> 01:03:02,320 that they are just some normal young girls, 1326 01:03:02,404 --> 01:03:04,739 with some customs unconventional 1327 01:03:04,823 --> 01:03:07,284 and they are not able to repress 1328 01:03:07,367 --> 01:03:09,327 anarchy in their hearts, do you know? 1329 01:03:09,411 --> 01:03:11,121 [reporter] I noticed that X on your forehead. 1330 01:03:11,204 --> 01:03:12,664 Why do that, may I ask? 1331 01:03:12,747 --> 01:03:18,336 The X only symbolizes where we are discarded from all this madness. 1332 01:03:18,837 --> 01:03:20,463 Why don't they let us testify? 1333 01:03:20,547 --> 01:03:22,132 [Fromme] We are trying to defend it, 1334 01:03:22,215 --> 01:03:24,050 but he didn't ask for it. 1335 01:03:24,134 --> 01:03:25,510 When he saw Mr. Manson this morning, 1336 01:03:25,593 --> 01:03:26,678 how did you see it? 1337 01:03:27,846 --> 01:03:29,222 "Help!" 1338 01:03:29,306 --> 01:03:34,686 [Fromme] And indeed, It made things worse for him. 1339 01:03:34,769 --> 01:03:36,146 MANSON AND GUILTY GIRLS! 1340 01:03:36,229 --> 01:03:39,316 [presenter] Everyone was declared guilty of first degree murder. 1341 01:03:39,399 --> 01:03:42,694 The prosecution in this case has used this trial for political purposes. 1342 01:03:42,777 --> 01:03:44,738 [Sophia] Testimony of Charles Manson. 1343 01:03:44,821 --> 01:03:46,614 "What they want is the devil. 1344 01:03:46,698 --> 01:03:49,284 They want a sadistic demon because that's what you are." 1345 01:03:49,367 --> 01:03:52,412 The media and the public have used it 1346 01:03:52,495 --> 01:03:53,872 for entertainment purposes. 1347 01:03:53,955 --> 01:03:54,956 You dealt the cards. 1348 01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:56,374 You put me in LIFE magazine, 1349 01:03:56,458 --> 01:03:58,585 you got me condemned before entering the court. 1350 01:03:59,002 --> 01:04:01,963 "You reflect on me what you are inside yourselves 1351 01:04:02,047 --> 01:04:04,132 "because I don't care about anything about none of you, 1352 01:04:04,215 --> 01:04:05,675 and I don't care what they do." 1353 01:04:05,759 --> 01:04:07,886 They could say that I'm a bit like Satan. 1354 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,014 I am in many different places at the same time. 1355 01:04:11,097 --> 01:04:14,684 I think I was giving people what they really wanted to see. 1356 01:04:14,768 --> 01:04:17,729 [Charlie Rose] You were one of the most infamous criminals... 1357 01:04:17,812 --> 01:04:19,564 -Of all times. -[Rose] ...in the world. 1358 01:04:19,647 --> 01:04:22,400 He's acting for interviews and for the public. 1359 01:04:22,484 --> 01:04:24,652 [sputtering] How many times I have to pass...? 1360 01:04:24,736 --> 01:04:27,364 [sputtering] 1361 01:04:27,447 --> 01:04:29,324 My curiosity takes over me, 1362 01:04:29,407 --> 01:04:32,118 and I think: "Is he leaning towards this evil guy 1363 01:04:32,202 --> 01:04:34,954 because they started writing about him as an evil person?" 1364 01:04:35,038 --> 01:04:37,374 On some level, alone, He has the look for the role. 1365 01:04:37,457 --> 01:04:40,210 I mean, his hair is messy. He has crazy eyes. He has a beard. 1366 01:04:40,293 --> 01:04:42,379 A swastika is carved on his forehead. 1367 01:04:42,462 --> 01:04:45,006 It has a pretty dramatic physical presence. 1368 01:04:45,090 --> 01:04:46,383 Believe me, 1369 01:04:46,466 --> 01:04:48,635 If I started killing people... 1370 01:04:49,886 --> 01:04:51,638 there would be none of you left. 1371 01:04:51,721 --> 01:04:53,139 And for the traditional press, 1372 01:04:53,223 --> 01:04:55,392 He is the realization of your worst nightmare. 1373 01:04:55,475 --> 01:04:57,852 that has been predicted for years. 1374 01:04:57,936 --> 01:04:59,979 He plays the bogeyman. He knows how to do it. 1375 01:05:00,063 --> 01:05:03,066 You would have to be very smart for one person to do all things 1376 01:05:03,149 --> 01:05:04,692 what I have to do... 1377 01:05:06,277 --> 01:05:07,779 to survive... 1378 01:05:08,238 --> 01:05:12,450 in you, and in you, and in you... 1379 01:05:14,285 --> 01:05:15,662 and in you too. 1380 01:05:17,872 --> 01:05:20,166 [Sophia] The question with my dad and my grandfather 1381 01:05:20,250 --> 01:05:23,503 is that they never had tools to heal your trauma. 1382 01:05:24,254 --> 01:05:26,965 So when someone tells you who have darkness in their nature, 1383 01:05:28,007 --> 01:05:29,300 they duplicate it. 1384 01:05:29,801 --> 01:05:32,011 [ringing tone] 1385 01:05:32,095 --> 01:05:37,142 My dad and I always argue for sexism, for Manson, 1386 01:05:37,225 --> 01:05:39,602 but he started taking it very personally. 1387 01:05:39,686 --> 01:05:42,147 [voicemail] Sorry, but the person he called 1388 01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:44,941 has not activated your voicemail. 1389 01:05:45,024 --> 01:05:47,444 [♪ melancholic music plays] 1390 01:05:49,696 --> 01:05:52,449 [Sophia] And then, everything was ruined. 1391 01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:54,409 Tell me what you just said. 1392 01:05:54,492 --> 01:05:56,077 -[Daniel] No, you tell me. -[Sophia] Tell me. 1393 01:05:56,161 --> 01:05:58,371 -[Daniel] No, you tell me. -[Sophia] Do you want to call me that again? 1394 01:05:58,455 --> 01:05:59,914 [Daniel] They are your trigger words. 1395 01:05:59,998 --> 01:06:00,999 [Sophia] And what are they? 1396 01:06:01,082 --> 01:06:03,334 -[Daniel] Yes, they are your triggers. -[Sophia] Call me that now. 1397 01:06:03,418 --> 01:06:05,211 -[Daniel] They are your dets... -[Sophia] Call me a whore... 1398 01:06:05,295 --> 01:06:07,589 -[Daniel] Take me home, please. -[Sophia] Call me that. 1399 01:06:07,672 --> 01:06:10,008 -Don't stop being sexist now. -Why do you stop on the road? 1400 01:06:10,091 --> 01:06:13,052 -Why are you risking our lives? -[Sophia] Don't do that now. 1401 01:06:13,136 --> 01:06:16,556 -[Daniel] Why are you risking our lives? -[Sophia] Don't back down. Tell me. 1402 01:06:16,639 --> 01:06:18,766 You better get out of here right now, young lady. 1403 01:06:18,850 --> 01:06:20,894 -You are risking our lives. -[Sophia] You hate me. 1404 01:06:20,977 --> 01:06:22,604 [Daniel] Because you're a fucking idiot. 1405 01:06:22,687 --> 01:06:23,938 [Sophia] Yes, very good. 1406 01:06:24,731 --> 01:06:27,442 [Daniel] And I regret it to call you my daughter 1407 01:06:27,525 --> 01:06:29,694 because you're a fucking lying bitch. 1408 01:06:29,777 --> 01:06:30,778 [Sophia] What did I lie to you about? 1409 01:06:30,862 --> 01:06:31,946 [Daniel] In everything. 1410 01:06:32,030 --> 01:06:33,573 -[Sophia] What did I lie to you about? -Take me home. 1411 01:06:33,656 --> 01:06:34,991 -Don't talk to me. -[Sophia sighs] 1412 01:06:38,411 --> 01:06:40,038 [turn signal] 1413 01:06:41,623 --> 01:06:43,458 [Sophia] Before I leave you, can i say something? 1414 01:06:43,541 --> 01:06:46,044 [Daniel] No. Don't say a fucking word to me. 1415 01:06:46,127 --> 01:06:47,295 [Sophia] I'm not mad at you. 1416 01:06:47,378 --> 01:06:49,631 [Daniel] Me neither. Don't say a single word to me. 1417 01:06:49,714 --> 01:06:50,798 Leave me in the corner. 1418 01:06:50,882 --> 01:06:52,133 I don't want to talk to you again. 1419 01:06:52,217 --> 01:06:53,218 [Sophia] Don't say that. 1420 01:06:53,301 --> 01:06:54,802 -[Daniel] I don't... -[Sophia] Don't say that. 1421 01:06:54,886 --> 01:06:56,346 -Don't say that. -Leave me in that corner. 1422 01:06:56,429 --> 01:06:58,973 -I never want to talk to you again. -Don't say that. 1423 01:06:59,057 --> 01:07:00,183 -[Daniel] Goodbye. -[Sophia] No. 1424 01:07:00,266 --> 01:07:01,601 -[Daniel] Yes. -[Sophia] I'm not going to leave you. 1425 01:07:01,684 --> 01:07:04,312 -[Daniel] Goodbye. -[Sophia] I'm not going to let you get away with that. 1426 01:07:04,395 --> 01:07:06,773 -[Daniel] Stop. Right here. -No. I don't mind. 1427 01:07:06,856 --> 01:07:07,941 I'm not mad. I don't mind. 1428 01:07:08,024 --> 01:07:09,108 [Daniel] Stop here! 1429 01:07:09,192 --> 01:07:10,360 -No. -[Daniel] Yes. 1430 01:07:10,443 --> 01:07:12,237 -No. -[Daniel] Stop right now! 1431 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,113 -Don't do that. -[opens car door] 1432 01:07:14,197 --> 01:07:16,157 [♪ tense music plays] 1433 01:07:21,162 --> 01:07:23,331 ♪♪ 1434 01:07:28,962 --> 01:07:31,005 [Sophia growling] 1435 01:07:31,089 --> 01:07:33,716 [coach speaks interchangeably] 1436 01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,219 [continues growling] 1437 01:07:36,302 --> 01:07:38,846 Since I've been researching... 1438 01:07:38,930 --> 01:07:40,890 [grunts continue] 1439 01:07:40,974 --> 01:07:43,768 ...and I've been talking with my dad from his dad... 1440 01:07:43,851 --> 01:07:45,395 [grunts continue] 1441 01:07:46,312 --> 01:07:49,065 ...every time I discover something new about his father 1442 01:07:49,148 --> 01:07:51,734 that is sad, heartbreaking or murderous 1443 01:07:51,818 --> 01:07:54,404 or guilt, whatever... 1444 01:07:54,487 --> 01:07:55,947 [panting] 1445 01:07:56,030 --> 01:07:57,615 ...my dad breaks down a little. 1446 01:07:59,075 --> 01:08:00,743 and the question is 1447 01:08:00,827 --> 01:08:03,204 Do you abandon them and leave them like everyone else 1448 01:08:03,288 --> 01:08:04,747 They have abandoned and left them, 1449 01:08:05,373 --> 01:08:07,125 or do you put up with it? 1450 01:08:07,208 --> 01:08:09,794 ♪♪ 1451 01:08:13,089 --> 01:08:15,133 I'm not talking to my dad. 1452 01:08:16,926 --> 01:08:18,469 I don't talk to my mom. 1453 01:08:19,429 --> 01:08:22,015 And I don't talk to anyone that doesn't make me feel... 1454 01:08:22,682 --> 01:08:25,268 well or happy, or safe being myself. 1455 01:08:25,351 --> 01:08:27,520 This is how I protect myself 1456 01:08:28,146 --> 01:08:31,149 Because I feel safe alone. 1457 01:08:32,817 --> 01:08:35,194 [Charles] [on laptop] You can't fight for peace. 1458 01:08:35,278 --> 01:08:37,572 [Charles and Sophia] You cannot capture freedom. 1459 01:08:37,655 --> 01:08:38,781 CHARLES MANSON'S VOICE 1460 01:08:38,865 --> 01:08:40,491 [Charles] And it's a very old and simple thing 1461 01:08:40,575 --> 01:08:42,910 than any small baby might find out if we don't... 1462 01:08:42,994 --> 01:08:44,329 We would put cancer in their minds. 1463 01:08:44,412 --> 01:08:46,164 [Charles] ...we would put cancer in their minds. 1464 01:08:46,873 --> 01:08:48,791 If someone hits you with a whip 1465 01:08:48,875 --> 01:08:50,543 and you love the spanking... 1466 01:08:50,627 --> 01:08:52,378 [laughs] what are you doing? 1467 01:08:52,670 --> 01:08:55,840 He's making a fool of himself. [laughs] 1468 01:08:56,799 --> 01:08:59,844 [Sophia] I think it's interesting being accused of 1469 01:08:59,927 --> 01:09:02,639 to give this love so incredibly abusive 1470 01:09:02,722 --> 01:09:04,974 to the followers of his sect. 1471 01:09:06,392 --> 01:09:10,855 And then, you know for abusive love. 1472 01:09:10,938 --> 01:09:13,608 I'm not saying I'm innocent of abusive love. 1473 01:09:13,691 --> 01:09:15,443 I think he is capable of both, 1474 01:09:15,526 --> 01:09:17,695 but he doesn't go around thinking, 1475 01:09:17,779 --> 01:09:20,698 and I think my dad doesn't either: 1476 01:09:20,782 --> 01:09:22,700 "I will make Sophia believe that I love her, 1477 01:09:22,784 --> 01:09:26,496 to be able to abandon her and test your loyalty to me." 1478 01:09:26,579 --> 01:09:28,498 I think they just have problems. 1479 01:09:28,581 --> 01:09:33,336 [Allie, co-director] I think There is something interesting in all this. 1480 01:09:33,419 --> 01:09:36,005 that may be found under the surface in you. 1481 01:09:36,089 --> 01:09:38,299 There's something about this quote... 1482 01:09:38,383 --> 01:09:40,301 that is moving something to you... 1483 01:09:40,385 --> 01:09:44,263 that helps you feel better... 1484 01:09:44,347 --> 01:09:46,057 regarding your grandfather. 1485 01:09:46,140 --> 01:09:48,059 And I'm curious to know what that is? 1486 01:09:49,268 --> 01:09:50,895 It's anti-war. 1487 01:09:53,314 --> 01:09:55,608 TATE KILLERS AIMED TO RACIAL WAR, SAYS THE STATE 1488 01:09:55,692 --> 01:09:57,318 And, Stephen, the prosecutor told me: 1489 01:09:57,402 --> 01:09:59,404 "All I wanted was to start a war 1490 01:09:59,821 --> 01:10:01,322 and he never spoke of love." 1491 01:10:01,406 --> 01:10:04,992 Now, I've met quite a few people to know that that is not true. 1492 01:10:05,076 --> 01:10:07,078 ♪♪ 1493 01:10:07,745 --> 01:10:10,790 [Allie] I am not opposed to that interpretation. 1494 01:10:10,873 --> 01:10:13,292 But what I am going to reflect on with you... 1495 01:10:14,794 --> 01:10:17,839 when you spend a lot of time listening to your grandfather... 1496 01:10:17,922 --> 01:10:21,300 or before when you spent a lot of time listening to your dad... 1497 01:10:22,635 --> 01:10:25,096 ...sometimes I listen to your dad. 1498 01:10:26,347 --> 01:10:28,641 Here's the thing, you're right. 1499 01:10:28,725 --> 01:10:30,101 I was raised by my dad, 1500 01:10:30,184 --> 01:10:33,396 and there are many, like, dad ideas and dad patterns. 1501 01:10:34,355 --> 01:10:38,317 I always saw my dad and me as very adaptable people. 1502 01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:40,737 You can put me... 1503 01:10:41,696 --> 01:10:44,741 in a room with someone who murdered a person. 1504 01:10:44,824 --> 01:10:46,534 Sorry, but... 1505 01:10:46,617 --> 01:10:51,581 you try too hard for making them sound better. 1506 01:10:52,832 --> 01:10:54,292 Don't know. Don't know. 1507 01:10:54,375 --> 01:10:57,003 But Dr. Rose also said that Manson was parentalized, 1508 01:10:57,086 --> 01:10:58,629 and my dad was parented. 1509 01:10:58,713 --> 01:11:00,757 I believe it. But, I guess what I'm saying is... 1510 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,552 you are more than their bosses. 1511 01:11:04,635 --> 01:11:06,012 Don't you feel that in you? 1512 01:11:06,095 --> 01:11:07,388 [Sophia] Sure, yes. 1513 01:11:07,472 --> 01:11:09,766 [♪ soft piano music plays] 1514 01:11:11,559 --> 01:11:15,146 My dad told me that his golden years were raising me, 1515 01:11:15,229 --> 01:11:16,814 being a full time dad, 1516 01:11:16,898 --> 01:11:18,900 and I really felt that love. 1517 01:11:18,983 --> 01:11:20,026 [Lake] That's great. 1518 01:11:20,985 --> 01:11:22,153 [Sophia] Daily. 1519 01:11:22,820 --> 01:11:25,782 Doesn't mean it wasn't emotionally turbulent. 1520 01:11:25,865 --> 01:11:27,033 Hey... 1521 01:11:27,867 --> 01:11:30,119 He could turn around without thinking. 1522 01:11:31,621 --> 01:11:33,164 ♪♪ 1523 01:11:33,247 --> 01:11:35,416 He could be very, very generous and charitable, 1524 01:11:35,958 --> 01:11:37,877 and then be very, very selfish. 1525 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,505 So it always had this duality... 1526 01:11:40,588 --> 01:11:44,634 eh, but I always held on to the loving part. 1527 01:11:44,717 --> 01:11:45,760 [Lake] Part, right. 1528 01:11:45,843 --> 01:11:50,097 When you love someone, you forgive... far and wide, 1529 01:11:50,181 --> 01:11:53,643 the indiscretions or the... You know, the bad things. 1530 01:11:53,726 --> 01:11:55,812 And you just... 1531 01:11:56,979 --> 01:11:58,773 You don't focus on it. 1532 01:11:58,856 --> 01:12:00,983 At the time did you feel 1533 01:12:01,067 --> 01:12:02,985 that the love of Charlie To you was it genuine? 1534 01:12:03,069 --> 01:12:05,196 Yes, I did. 1535 01:12:05,863 --> 01:12:07,240 Really. 1536 01:12:07,323 --> 01:12:08,324 And I think he... 1537 01:12:08,407 --> 01:12:12,245 But on the other hand, I also knew that, eh, 1538 01:12:12,703 --> 01:12:17,333 is what the pimps they had taught him. 1539 01:12:17,917 --> 01:12:21,003 And he was definitely, You know, manipulative. 1540 01:12:21,546 --> 01:12:23,381 He did, yes, hurt me. 1541 01:12:23,464 --> 01:12:25,299 We talked about prostituting myself. 1542 01:12:25,383 --> 01:12:28,928 And then, you know, We hadn't had sex for a while, 1543 01:12:29,011 --> 01:12:31,389 and I really wanted that he wanted me, 1544 01:12:31,472 --> 01:12:34,392 for that first experience 1545 01:12:34,475 --> 01:12:36,602 and other experiences that were 1546 01:12:36,686 --> 01:12:39,730 So incredibly wonderful, right? 1547 01:12:40,273 --> 01:12:43,484 We went to this little gypsy cart 1548 01:12:43,568 --> 01:12:46,863 which was halfway between the ranch house and the back house 1549 01:12:47,405 --> 01:12:50,825 and, uh, you know, We take off our clothes and... 1550 01:12:53,536 --> 01:12:54,704 It wasn't the same. 1551 01:12:54,787 --> 01:12:56,122 He turned me around and... 1552 01:12:58,541 --> 01:13:01,586 and he sodomized me, you know, brutally, 1553 01:13:01,669 --> 01:13:04,714 and then he said, "This is how We do it in jail," you know. 1554 01:13:04,797 --> 01:13:06,507 And it left me crying. 1555 01:13:06,591 --> 01:13:09,552 And that was, you know, I never asked him again 1556 01:13:09,635 --> 01:13:11,762 Sex again, for sure. 1557 01:13:11,846 --> 01:13:14,557 And I don't think we would have sex again. 1558 01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,101 That was very, that was very painful. 1559 01:13:17,184 --> 01:13:19,937 I didn't deserve that, you know. 1560 01:13:20,021 --> 01:13:21,230 Hey... 1561 01:13:22,690 --> 01:13:24,442 I'm so sorry that happened to you. 1562 01:13:25,568 --> 01:13:28,195 I think you are a very strong person. 1563 01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:30,740 And so open and sincere. 1564 01:13:32,074 --> 01:13:33,951 [Lake] It was very difficult for me, 1565 01:13:34,035 --> 01:13:37,204 uh, accept the fact that, you know, 1566 01:13:37,288 --> 01:13:39,790 that it had been... I stayed. 1567 01:13:40,499 --> 01:13:45,254 I was very young and I thought that Charlie He would be angry with me if I left, 1568 01:13:45,338 --> 01:13:46,881 and I didn't know where to go. 1569 01:13:49,926 --> 01:13:50,968 Don't know. 1570 01:13:51,052 --> 01:13:52,678 When I listen to them, they break my heart, 1571 01:13:52,762 --> 01:13:54,597 Because that's not the dad I know. 1572 01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,225 -It's not what my dad and I defend. -But... he's not your dad. 1573 01:13:58,309 --> 01:14:00,394 ♪♪ 1574 01:14:00,478 --> 01:14:01,979 [Sophia] It can be so loving. 1575 01:14:02,939 --> 01:14:04,357 It can be so hateful. 1576 01:14:04,815 --> 01:14:07,318 There is no reason so that he 1577 01:14:07,401 --> 01:14:09,111 I would have suddenly changed with you. 1578 01:14:09,737 --> 01:14:11,781 -We didn't deserve that. -That's how it is. 1579 01:14:11,864 --> 01:14:15,117 But then, they don't have the tools to know 1580 01:14:15,201 --> 01:14:17,662 why personality problem or mental health go through. 1581 01:14:18,621 --> 01:14:20,289 Did you know? It's difficult. 1582 01:14:21,082 --> 01:14:22,416 It's difficult, I know. 1583 01:14:22,500 --> 01:14:24,877 [♪ somber music plays] 1584 01:14:25,670 --> 01:14:29,465 [Sophia] I see similar patterns in my dad and my grandfather. 1585 01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,843 Those sudden, almost manic reversals. 1586 01:14:33,427 --> 01:14:35,137 But with my grandfather, 1587 01:14:35,221 --> 01:14:37,848 the panic of the murders that occurred took hold of him 1588 01:14:37,932 --> 01:14:39,350 in those last few months. 1589 01:14:41,060 --> 01:14:42,770 To understand it better, 1590 01:14:42,853 --> 01:14:44,730 I'm going to see Stephanie Schram, 1591 01:14:44,814 --> 01:14:48,025 his last girlfriend before the murders of '69. 1592 01:14:49,443 --> 01:14:50,736 [Stephanie Schram] Sit down. 1593 01:14:50,820 --> 01:14:53,155 [Sophia] Thank you very much. It's very nice out here. 1594 01:14:53,531 --> 01:14:55,783 I was wondering, huh, 1595 01:14:55,866 --> 01:14:59,161 If you could describe the first time that you knew my grandfather. 1596 01:14:59,245 --> 01:15:02,415 I just wanted to be untied and free, 1597 01:15:02,498 --> 01:15:05,626 and a friend of mine, huh, 1598 01:15:05,710 --> 01:15:10,840 I was going to drive to Nevada to visit his uncles. 1599 01:15:10,923 --> 01:15:13,009 So he said: "Do you want to come with me?" 1600 01:15:13,092 --> 01:15:16,345 So it was on that trip When I came back I met Charlie, 1601 01:15:16,429 --> 01:15:18,347 and I fell in love with him. 1602 01:15:19,348 --> 01:15:22,351 I think because I was looking for something. 1603 01:15:23,144 --> 01:15:27,064 That night I met him, He took me to meet everyone on the ranch. 1604 01:15:28,274 --> 01:15:30,943 Everyone was very happy to see Charlie return. 1605 01:15:31,027 --> 01:15:33,154 He was recruiting, 1606 01:15:33,237 --> 01:15:36,115 and I think they thought that he... 1607 01:15:36,198 --> 01:15:40,536 would arrive with several new recruits, 1608 01:15:40,619 --> 01:15:43,164 and all he had was me. Hey... 1609 01:15:43,247 --> 01:15:45,750 The first night we were there, 1610 01:15:45,833 --> 01:15:49,503 He told me to go to sleep and that there was a trailer. 1611 01:15:49,587 --> 01:15:53,966 And he said, "Go there and I'll be there in a moment." 1612 01:15:54,050 --> 01:15:57,053 Well, obviously, I fell asleep and, uh, 1613 01:15:57,136 --> 01:15:59,305 he came out, and that was the night it happened. 1614 01:15:59,388 --> 01:16:00,931 -[Sophia] The LaBianca -The... Aha. 1615 01:16:01,015 --> 01:16:03,100 ♪♪ 1616 01:16:03,184 --> 01:16:07,146 He didn't go back to bed until, like, dawn. 1617 01:16:07,229 --> 01:16:08,230 [Sophia] Um. 1618 01:16:08,314 --> 01:16:10,983 Do you think he told him those things to those people? 1619 01:16:11,067 --> 01:16:13,110 Go and do that? Yes. 1620 01:16:13,569 --> 01:16:15,154 [Sophia] Well, what makes you think that? 1621 01:16:15,237 --> 01:16:18,949 [Schram] Well, I I liked murder school. 1622 01:16:19,033 --> 01:16:20,159 It was like a small class. 1623 01:16:20,242 --> 01:16:23,079 I taught you how to put a knife and what to do with it, 1624 01:16:23,162 --> 01:16:26,916 so that you will make sure that someone was dead and things like that. 1625 01:16:26,999 --> 01:16:30,544 And... I wasn't there for that. 1626 01:16:30,628 --> 01:16:32,546 ♪♪ 1627 01:16:32,922 --> 01:16:34,507 Who was in that class? 1628 01:16:34,590 --> 01:16:36,342 All the girls, everyone. 1629 01:16:36,425 --> 01:16:39,136 All that were... It was out in the desert, you know. 1630 01:16:39,220 --> 01:16:40,971 -In Barker? -[Schram] Yes. 1631 01:16:41,055 --> 01:16:42,765 [Sophia] then, after the murders? 1632 01:16:42,848 --> 01:16:45,059 [Schram] Yes. Yes. 1633 01:16:45,601 --> 01:16:49,105 One of the things that Charlie He made us dig holes. 1634 01:16:49,188 --> 01:16:50,981 "Why are we doing this?" 1635 01:16:52,608 --> 01:16:55,569 And he said: "Those are for us to hide." 1636 01:16:55,653 --> 01:16:57,363 -[Sophia] Uh-huh. -And... 1637 01:16:58,739 --> 01:17:00,950 there should have been more from what I knew 1638 01:17:01,033 --> 01:17:04,036 because I thought: "Why? I don't hide from anyone." 1639 01:17:04,537 --> 01:17:05,788 But they did. 1640 01:17:10,543 --> 01:17:14,505 Huh, and that's why it started to seem more and more strange to me. 1641 01:17:15,464 --> 01:17:17,174 So that's why... 1642 01:17:17,258 --> 01:17:19,468 -That's why I wanted to leave. -[Sophia] Uh-huh. 1643 01:17:19,552 --> 01:17:22,054 You don't need, you know... 1644 01:17:22,138 --> 01:17:24,640 -[Schram] Yes. -...go deeper into it... 1645 01:17:24,723 --> 01:17:25,975 -[Schram] Yes. -...if it affects you, 1646 01:17:26,058 --> 01:17:29,228 but, how did you see yourself escaping... 1647 01:17:29,854 --> 01:17:31,522 or were you able to escape? 1648 01:17:32,106 --> 01:17:35,317 [Schram] "Kitty" and me, we sat and talked 1649 01:17:35,401 --> 01:17:38,529 how much we missed 31 Flavors ice creams. 1650 01:17:38,612 --> 01:17:41,282 We started talking Thanksgiving and turkey 1651 01:17:41,365 --> 01:17:43,075 and the filling and everything. [laughs] 1652 01:17:43,159 --> 01:17:44,410 It sounds like they were hungry. 1653 01:17:44,493 --> 01:17:46,245 Yes. Most of the time. 1654 01:17:46,328 --> 01:17:47,496 -They were very hungry. -Yeah. 1655 01:17:47,580 --> 01:17:50,875 Hey, and I actually... 1656 01:17:51,542 --> 01:17:55,004 There are many things that disappeared from my memory, 1657 01:17:55,087 --> 01:17:56,213 details of things. 1658 01:17:56,297 --> 01:17:59,967 But... We just decided that when everyone went to sleep 1659 01:18:00,050 --> 01:18:03,012 That night we would just leave. 1660 01:18:03,095 --> 01:18:06,056 -Yeah. -And, uh, and we did it. 1661 01:18:06,140 --> 01:18:08,184 We had reached the top of the ravine, 1662 01:18:08,267 --> 01:18:11,979 and they were looking for us and we knew they did it. 1663 01:18:12,062 --> 01:18:13,355 But we were at the top of the ravine, 1664 01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:15,357 but the dune buggies They didn't reach the top. 1665 01:18:15,441 --> 01:18:17,151 So we just walk up 1666 01:18:17,234 --> 01:18:19,403 car appeared on the road and it was the sheriff. 1667 01:18:19,486 --> 01:18:21,530 -[Sophia] Mm. -[Schram] So we yelled, "Help." 1668 01:18:21,614 --> 01:18:22,781 -[Sophia] Yes. -[Schram] You already know? 1669 01:18:23,949 --> 01:18:27,119 [Allie, co-director] What made you think that you should escape that night? 1670 01:18:28,329 --> 01:18:31,040 What was it that he instinctively told you? that you had to go? 1671 01:18:31,373 --> 01:18:34,710 [clears throat] Charlie, uh, he had made it clear to us that 1672 01:18:34,793 --> 01:18:37,504 "Once here, don't leave. 1673 01:18:37,588 --> 01:18:40,674 If they leave, we will kill them and..." 1674 01:18:40,758 --> 01:18:42,343 -[Sophia] Did he tell you that? -[Schram] Yes. 1675 01:18:42,426 --> 01:18:46,013 You know, I think probably At some point he told me that. 1676 01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:49,433 I actually can't remember the occasion 1677 01:18:49,516 --> 01:18:51,435 or exactly what happened, 1678 01:18:51,518 --> 01:18:53,979 but I knew very well... 1679 01:18:54,897 --> 01:18:57,066 that once you're in the family, you're not leaving 1680 01:18:57,149 --> 01:19:00,277 And I was afraid. And I was afraid of ending up dead. 1681 01:19:00,611 --> 01:19:05,199 And what was happening with those people it was not a commune. 1682 01:19:05,282 --> 01:19:06,784 It was a sect. [giggles] 1683 01:19:06,867 --> 01:19:08,577 -Yes. -[Schram] So... 1684 01:19:08,661 --> 01:19:09,954 [Allie] In what way? 1685 01:19:10,037 --> 01:19:12,122 [high pitched beep] 1686 01:19:12,456 --> 01:19:14,959 [Schram] As a group, they... 1687 01:19:15,501 --> 01:19:17,086 They idolized Charlie. 1688 01:19:17,169 --> 01:19:19,421 He believed that he was God. They really believed it. 1689 01:19:19,505 --> 01:19:22,466 And I... I think maybe At one point I did it too. 1690 01:19:23,342 --> 01:19:28,264 The girls were, uh, enough, I'll use the word "indoctrinated." 1691 01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:31,517 They were enough indoctrinated by Charlie and they... 1692 01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:33,435 And that is... 1693 01:19:33,519 --> 01:19:36,272 You know, he practically dictated their behaviors. 1694 01:19:36,355 --> 01:19:37,648 Hey... 1695 01:19:37,731 --> 01:19:39,483 so i just I followed along. 1696 01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:43,320 I always felt that, uh, 1697 01:19:43,404 --> 01:19:48,033 that Charlie had such a degree of control over their minds. 1698 01:19:48,117 --> 01:19:49,493 I really believed it. 1699 01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,038 Much of this cannot be believed. 1700 01:19:54,540 --> 01:19:56,417 [Sophia] Uh huh. It's incredible. 1701 01:19:57,334 --> 01:19:59,712 -It's not so black and white. -[Schram] Yes. 1702 01:20:02,464 --> 01:20:03,590 [Sophia] Great. 1703 01:20:03,674 --> 01:20:05,843 [birds chirping] 1704 01:20:07,011 --> 01:20:10,306 She is so sweet and gentle. 1705 01:20:12,057 --> 01:20:13,267 He said goodbye with a kiss and said: 1706 01:20:13,350 --> 01:20:15,477 "I really enjoyed talking to you today." 1707 01:20:16,770 --> 01:20:19,273 I think she persevered. and overcame too much... 1708 01:20:20,316 --> 01:20:25,154 but she showed me her box investigation into...Charlie Manson. 1709 01:20:25,821 --> 01:20:29,783 The books were Helter Skelter, Jeff Guinn's book 1710 01:20:29,867 --> 01:20:31,869 and the book by Nuel Emmons. 1711 01:20:32,453 --> 01:20:36,040 Those are the three most sensational anti Charlie Manson books... 1712 01:20:36,957 --> 01:20:38,834 that you can get. 1713 01:20:38,917 --> 01:20:40,961 And I got very upset. 1714 01:20:41,045 --> 01:20:43,339 ♪♪ 1715 01:20:43,422 --> 01:20:47,092 You know, if, uh, you ask him to my dad's half brother, 1716 01:20:47,676 --> 01:20:50,387 he would tell you that my dad They never kicked him out of the house 1717 01:20:50,471 --> 01:20:51,972 and that he was not abused. 1718 01:20:52,848 --> 01:20:55,893 He would say that my dad just He fled the house with his friend. 1719 01:20:57,394 --> 01:21:01,106 He would say all these things about my dad because... 1720 01:21:01,982 --> 01:21:05,778 knows only what is right to be completely wrong. 1721 01:21:07,946 --> 01:21:09,948 She knows just enough from those books 1722 01:21:10,032 --> 01:21:12,284 to say: "Oh, he should have told me that," 1723 01:21:12,368 --> 01:21:14,453 because she read over and over again 1724 01:21:14,536 --> 01:21:18,749 that they... that Charlie killed to the people if they left the ranch. 1725 01:21:18,832 --> 01:21:21,877 That's my opinion, I really don't want to discuss it. 1726 01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:24,380 I can accept the opposition from my therapist, 1727 01:21:24,463 --> 01:21:27,383 but I don't really feel comfortable discussing this with you. 1728 01:21:27,466 --> 01:21:29,176 [Allie] Why not? 1729 01:21:29,259 --> 01:21:32,679 [Sophia] I don't need to be processing always on a whim 1730 01:21:32,763 --> 01:21:36,475 when traumatic things happen to me and they are recorded on camera. 1731 01:21:36,558 --> 01:21:38,477 It's not fair, and I've done it so often. 1732 01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:41,814 I do it so many times, and there is a limit for what I can bear. 1733 01:21:41,897 --> 01:21:45,067 [Allie] I completely understand. Because...? 1734 01:21:45,150 --> 01:21:46,568 You could have talked to a therapist... 1735 01:21:46,652 --> 01:21:49,822 Allie, if anyone wants to believe 1736 01:21:49,905 --> 01:21:53,200 that he did those things, Go ahead, damn it. 1737 01:21:53,784 --> 01:21:54,785 Forward. 1738 01:21:54,868 --> 01:21:57,830 I don't mind. I literally don't care. 1739 01:21:57,913 --> 01:22:00,541 Everyone else thinks so, so who cares? 1740 01:22:00,624 --> 01:22:02,626 I tell you what I feel 1741 01:22:02,709 --> 01:22:04,503 because the camera is pointing at me, 1742 01:22:04,586 --> 01:22:06,338 and I am embarking on this journey. 1743 01:22:06,422 --> 01:22:09,133 I have read the transcripts. I have reviewed the evidence. 1744 01:22:09,216 --> 01:22:12,845 I knew all the events in which she had gaps and lost memories. 1745 01:22:14,096 --> 01:22:16,432 [Allie] You don't have to back it up, but do you feel...? 1746 01:22:16,515 --> 01:22:18,308 Because when I saw you listen to those things, 1747 01:22:18,392 --> 01:22:19,768 your wall rose. 1748 01:22:19,852 --> 01:22:21,645 I don't... 1749 01:22:22,396 --> 01:22:23,564 [snorts] 1750 01:22:25,732 --> 01:22:27,067 Well, I'm very sorry. 1751 01:22:27,151 --> 01:22:28,861 [Allie] No, I'm not asking you make you feel bad. 1752 01:22:28,944 --> 01:22:30,195 I ask you... 1753 01:22:31,113 --> 01:22:32,573 [Sophia] [sighs] Fuck me. 1754 01:22:32,656 --> 01:22:34,199 Don't know. Maybe I don't do enough. 1755 01:22:34,283 --> 01:22:35,659 I can't keep doing this. 1756 01:22:35,742 --> 01:22:37,578 I can't take it anymore, it's over. 1757 01:22:37,661 --> 01:22:39,496 It's very fucked up, friend. 1758 01:22:44,626 --> 01:22:46,962 [high pitched hum] 1759 01:22:49,381 --> 01:22:51,175 [♪ ominous music plays] 1760 01:22:55,721 --> 01:22:57,139 [buzz continues] 1761 01:22:57,222 --> 01:22:59,224 [♪ ominous music continues] 1762 01:23:00,767 --> 01:23:02,769 [presenter] Young ladies, supposedly under the spell 1763 01:23:02,853 --> 01:23:04,104 of a bearded Svengali. 1764 01:23:04,188 --> 01:23:06,565 [Bugliosi] They massacred the victims in a homicidal orgy. 1765 01:23:06,648 --> 01:23:08,609 [Macallair] Your grandfather was product of failure 1766 01:23:08,692 --> 01:23:10,319 of the juvenile justice system. 1767 01:23:10,402 --> 01:23:12,488 [Daniel] We all went raised by dysfunctional people 1768 01:23:12,571 --> 01:23:14,281 who were raised by dysfunctional people. 1769 01:23:14,364 --> 01:23:16,200 [Charlie] If I wanted to kill someone, 1770 01:23:16,283 --> 01:23:18,577 I would take this book and I would beat you to death with it. 1771 01:23:18,660 --> 01:23:21,121 [Schreck] Do you doubt everything your father said? 1772 01:23:21,205 --> 01:23:22,789 [Daniel] I don't believe a word of nothing. 1773 01:23:22,873 --> 01:23:25,751 [Lake] When you love someone, you forgive far and wide, 1774 01:23:25,834 --> 01:23:26,919 everything bad. 1775 01:23:27,002 --> 01:23:28,837 [Daniel] Don't tell me a fucking word 1776 01:23:28,921 --> 01:23:31,423 -[Sophia] I'm not mad at you. -[Daniel] Don't say a fucking word to me. 1777 01:23:32,299 --> 01:23:35,219 [Sophia] Since my therapist He told me that they were pushing me 1778 01:23:35,302 --> 01:23:37,221 in many different directions, I... 1779 01:23:37,763 --> 01:23:39,806 Now I'm so aware of it. 1780 01:23:41,058 --> 01:23:43,143 I don't want to feel like this anymore. 1781 01:23:43,227 --> 01:23:44,811 -[♪ music intensifying] -[high-pitched hum] 1782 01:23:46,188 --> 01:23:48,065 [voice broken] I just want it to stop. 1783 01:23:49,107 --> 01:23:51,944 [♪ somber music plays] 1784 01:23:52,027 --> 01:23:54,029 [Allie] She's the director from a movie, 1785 01:23:54,571 --> 01:23:56,114 and it is very difficult. 1786 01:23:56,198 --> 01:23:58,200 And I wish she had I had better parents. 1787 01:23:59,826 --> 01:24:01,787 [♪ music plays continues] 1788 01:24:04,331 --> 01:24:07,543 [voice broken] Now she tries being an adult completely alone. 1789 01:24:07,626 --> 01:24:10,003 No help, no guide. 1790 01:24:10,087 --> 01:24:12,548 ♪♪ 1791 01:24:13,131 --> 01:24:15,259 She just needs more people who love her 1792 01:24:15,342 --> 01:24:17,261 and give it to her what she gives to others. 1793 01:24:18,095 --> 01:24:19,721 Because until I have that, 1794 01:24:19,805 --> 01:24:23,350 she will continue to hold on to these two men who don't deserve it. 1795 01:24:23,809 --> 01:24:25,352 Because his father has defects... 1796 01:24:25,852 --> 01:24:27,980 and, it is not present, 1797 01:24:28,063 --> 01:24:30,107 and his grandfather is dead. 1798 01:24:30,190 --> 01:24:32,234 ♪♪ 1799 01:24:32,985 --> 01:24:34,903 There is no one to save there. 1800 01:24:51,128 --> 01:24:53,046 [Dr. Rose] How are you feeling today, Sophia? 1801 01:24:55,048 --> 01:24:57,134 [Sophia] I just don't want to be a bad person. 1802 01:25:00,596 --> 01:25:03,223 I just want to do the right thing for the victims 1803 01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:05,392 and for my grandfather, 1804 01:25:06,226 --> 01:25:09,187 and I don't know how... I'm doing it. 1805 01:25:09,271 --> 01:25:11,273 I don't know if I'm doing it right. 1806 01:25:11,356 --> 01:25:13,191 [♪ somber music plays] 1807 01:25:14,067 --> 01:25:16,361 Rosemary, Leno LaBianca... 1808 01:25:16,945 --> 01:25:19,948 Steven Parent, Jay Sebring... 1809 01:25:21,199 --> 01:25:25,203 Frykowski, Folger, Hinman, 1810 01:25:25,662 --> 01:25:27,998 Sharon Tate, Sharon Tate's baby. 1811 01:25:28,665 --> 01:25:31,293 nine people, after being murdered, 1812 01:25:31,793 --> 01:25:35,213 were revictimized over and over and over again. 1813 01:25:36,548 --> 01:25:37,674 ♪♪ 1814 01:25:37,758 --> 01:25:42,929 [Dr. Rose] I heard you recite those nine names 1815 01:25:43,013 --> 01:25:45,724 with such fluency that it tells me 1816 01:25:45,807 --> 01:25:49,102 that you carry those names in your heart. 1817 01:25:50,228 --> 01:25:53,440 The pain is getting bigger and bigger. 1818 01:25:54,775 --> 01:25:57,027 ♪♪ 1819 01:25:57,903 --> 01:26:01,156 You hold on to something that doesn't belong to you. 1820 01:26:03,700 --> 01:26:06,495 You can give him this to something bigger than yourself. 1821 01:26:08,872 --> 01:26:11,166 Do me a favor. Write their names. 1822 01:26:11,249 --> 01:26:13,210 ♪♪ 1823 01:26:14,503 --> 01:26:17,547 You can't be the owner of this, Sophia. 1824 01:26:20,217 --> 01:26:22,260 That's what this trip is about. 1825 01:26:22,344 --> 01:26:24,346 ♪♪ 1826 01:26:43,407 --> 01:26:45,701 [♪ faint guitar music plays] 1827 01:26:51,665 --> 01:26:54,793 [Sophia] [gasp] Oh, my God... [high-pitched scream] 1828 01:26:56,378 --> 01:26:58,004 It's Fun in Acapulco! 1829 01:26:59,214 --> 01:27:02,926 My dad played this vinyl every morning... 1830 01:27:04,010 --> 01:27:06,471 to wake us up and prepare for school. 1831 01:27:07,055 --> 01:27:08,098 That's amazing. 1832 01:27:08,181 --> 01:27:11,560 My dad sold this vinyl 1833 01:27:12,102 --> 01:27:14,521 when he was super broke and had to... 1834 01:27:15,522 --> 01:27:17,315 get money for food or whatever. 1835 01:27:17,399 --> 01:27:22,112 And... he sold all our vinyl, including this one. 1836 01:27:22,195 --> 01:27:24,239 And I always wanted it back. 1837 01:27:24,322 --> 01:27:26,867 He's not my grandpa, but that's okay. 1838 01:27:29,995 --> 01:27:32,497 I'll stick with this one. This is mine. 1839 01:27:33,206 --> 01:27:34,833 [♪ "Thoughts in My Mind" plays by Donnie and Joe Emerson] 1840 01:27:36,251 --> 01:27:40,172 ♪♪ 1841 01:27:48,638 --> 01:27:52,642 ♪♪ 1842 01:27:53,268 --> 01:27:54,644 [giggles] 1843 01:27:54,728 --> 01:27:58,857 ♪♪ 1844 01:27:58,940 --> 01:28:00,066 Ah! 1845 01:28:00,150 --> 01:28:01,318 [cracking lips] 1846 01:28:04,696 --> 01:28:08,450 ♪♪ 1847 01:28:09,117 --> 01:28:11,161 -[Daniel laughing] -Come on, dad. 1848 01:28:11,244 --> 01:28:16,041 ♪♪ 1849 01:28:16,124 --> 01:28:17,751 [Daniel] Do it, do it! Looks amazing. 1850 01:28:18,460 --> 01:28:21,588 Beautiful. That is. That's what we want. 1851 01:28:21,671 --> 01:28:27,928 ♪ Happy birthday, dear Sophia ♪ 1852 01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:32,557 ♪ Happy birthday ♪ 1853 01:28:32,641 --> 01:28:37,521 ♪ To you ♪ 1854 01:28:37,604 --> 01:28:39,648 ♪♪ 1855 01:28:40,023 --> 01:28:41,274 Make a wish. 1856 01:28:50,075 --> 01:28:51,993 [Dr. Rose] Talk to me from last weekend. 1857 01:28:52,077 --> 01:28:53,954 How do you feel? How are things going? 1858 01:28:55,288 --> 01:28:57,666 My dad blocked my number. 1859 01:28:58,333 --> 01:29:01,628 He... hasn't contacted me. 1860 01:29:03,922 --> 01:29:05,841 I hope he will act... 1861 01:29:06,758 --> 01:29:08,927 in a respectful way. 1862 01:29:09,010 --> 01:29:10,679 I want to respect it. 1863 01:29:10,762 --> 01:29:15,141 I have always felt a lot of empathy and compassion for him. 1864 01:29:16,434 --> 01:29:17,811 [Dr. Rose] Can I ask why? 1865 01:29:17,894 --> 01:29:21,648 [Sophia] Yes, he placed many dark and intense memories 1866 01:29:22,315 --> 01:29:24,860 in my mind when I was very small. 1867 01:29:26,736 --> 01:29:29,114 [Dr. Rose] Sophia, just putting it all together 1868 01:29:29,197 --> 01:29:32,534 what you describe about your dad, huh, 1869 01:29:32,617 --> 01:29:34,578 and those parts of your upbringing, 1870 01:29:34,661 --> 01:29:38,665 even the good as much as the bad, eh, 1871 01:29:38,748 --> 01:29:42,210 enough for me to say that your father prepared for you. 1872 01:29:42,294 --> 01:29:44,671 [♪ somber music plays] 1873 01:29:46,965 --> 01:29:53,013 It doesn't stop, you know, lewd or sexual acts, 1874 01:29:53,096 --> 01:29:58,518 but to adhere to the story 1875 01:29:58,602 --> 01:30:00,645 that perpetuates her condition as a victim. 1876 01:30:00,729 --> 01:30:01,897 [closes car door] 1877 01:30:01,980 --> 01:30:04,190 [Daniel] Hello, honey. 1878 01:30:05,150 --> 01:30:06,568 Are you OK? 1879 01:30:06,651 --> 01:30:08,778 [Sophia] I've been walking throughout El Segundo. 1880 01:30:08,862 --> 01:30:10,906 [Daniel] Well, you can thank to your mom for that. 1881 01:30:10,989 --> 01:30:14,743 [Sophia] I called you like three times in three different phones and you didn't answer. 1882 01:30:14,826 --> 01:30:16,620 [Daniel] Well, I'm busy! I'm working! 1883 01:30:16,703 --> 01:30:18,788 I'm trying to make a living, okay? 1884 01:30:18,872 --> 01:30:21,458 I have more important things what to worry about 1885 01:30:21,541 --> 01:30:25,337 That's your doctor's appointment, okay? 1886 01:30:25,420 --> 01:30:27,964 That was last minute, It was not programmed with me. 1887 01:30:28,048 --> 01:30:29,966 [Sophia] Is your job more important than me? 1888 01:30:30,050 --> 01:30:33,345 Stop yelling at me or I'll start screaming! 1889 01:30:33,428 --> 01:30:36,056 You're the one who started screaming first, 1890 01:30:36,139 --> 01:30:38,433 and I have it documented here on a tape. 1891 01:30:38,516 --> 01:30:39,851 [Sophia] Holy shit. 1892 01:30:40,518 --> 01:30:42,520 We will review the tape and we'll see who's screaming. 1893 01:30:46,191 --> 01:30:48,568 [Dr. Rose] He poured everything into you... 1894 01:30:50,403 --> 01:30:53,198 so that you were the person who always sees his condition as a victim. 1895 01:30:54,658 --> 01:30:56,284 It means you control the narrative. 1896 01:30:56,368 --> 01:30:58,328 And only one person wants to control the narrative, 1897 01:30:58,411 --> 01:31:00,372 and that person is the narcissist. 1898 01:31:02,165 --> 01:31:05,710 [Daniel] It's you who wants run away from all your problems. 1899 01:31:07,128 --> 01:31:11,007 I am the one who endured, the one who stayed, 1900 01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,928 who has been there for you, lifts you up when you fall, 1901 01:31:15,011 --> 01:31:17,847 clean your nose when you runny, 1902 01:31:17,931 --> 01:31:19,891 He gives you medicine when you are sick. 1903 01:31:19,975 --> 01:31:21,935 ♪♪ 1904 01:31:23,937 --> 01:31:25,730 [Dr. Rose] Do you know what radical acceptance is the only way 1905 01:31:25,814 --> 01:31:28,650 -to win with a narcissist? -[Sophia] Ujum. 1906 01:31:28,733 --> 01:31:30,944 [Dr. Rose] And radical acceptance is that you will never win. 1907 01:31:31,027 --> 01:31:32,529 Yes, totally. 1908 01:31:32,612 --> 01:31:34,322 [Sophia] I don't want to yell at you. It's not your fault. 1909 01:31:34,406 --> 01:31:36,408 -I know it's not your fault. -[Daniel] And why are you yelling at me? 1910 01:31:36,491 --> 01:31:38,660 -[Sophia] I'm not mad at you. -[Daniel] What? Oh, you... 1911 01:31:38,743 --> 01:31:41,746 -[Sophia] I get angry because you yell at me. -[Daniel] Ah, you're schizophrenic. 1912 01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:43,999 Leave me in the corner. I don't want to talk to you again. 1913 01:31:44,082 --> 01:31:45,667 I don't mind. I'm not mad at you. 1914 01:31:45,750 --> 01:31:46,918 [Daniel] I said stop here! 1915 01:31:47,002 --> 01:31:48,086 -No. -[Daniel] Yes. 1916 01:31:48,169 --> 01:31:50,046 -No. -[Daniel] Stop right now! 1917 01:31:50,130 --> 01:31:51,381 -Don't do that. -[opens door] 1918 01:31:52,298 --> 01:31:55,969 [Dr. Rose] I think he tries further fuel their victimhood 1919 01:31:56,636 --> 01:31:59,723 clinging to Charlie's narrative. 1920 01:32:00,598 --> 01:32:05,103 I want to make sure that the preparation what you experienced with dad, 1921 01:32:05,186 --> 01:32:07,355 that your relationship with your grandfather 1922 01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,607 You are not benefiting from that. 1923 01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:13,737 [Sophia] Hello, Dr. Schug. 1924 01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:16,573 -[Dr. Robert Schug] How are you? -[Sophia] Good. Thank you for having me. 1925 01:32:16,656 --> 01:32:18,199 -Nice to meet you. -Sophia. 1926 01:32:18,283 --> 01:32:20,869 I will take a test later today of ink stains, 1927 01:32:20,952 --> 01:32:22,370 a personality test. 1928 01:32:23,705 --> 01:32:26,624 I don't know exactly What am I going to gain with this test? 1929 01:32:26,708 --> 01:32:29,461 but I know that my grandfather took it a couple of times 1930 01:32:29,544 --> 01:32:33,840 and the results varied and progressed over the years. 1931 01:32:34,466 --> 01:32:35,592 Hey... 1932 01:32:36,051 --> 01:32:37,302 So I'll take it with a grain of salt 1933 01:32:37,385 --> 01:32:38,636 because, as we have talked... 1934 01:32:40,555 --> 01:32:42,724 the world of psychology 1935 01:32:42,807 --> 01:32:45,393 maybe it wasn't so accurate In some of those years, 1936 01:32:45,477 --> 01:32:47,604 but they are going to compare my results with yours. 1937 01:32:47,687 --> 01:32:49,439 ♪♪ 1938 01:32:50,648 --> 01:32:52,233 WAITING ROOM 1939 01:32:52,317 --> 01:32:54,736 [Dr. Schug] The data They come from your grandfather 1940 01:32:54,819 --> 01:32:59,824 from a 1997 evaluation at Pelican Bay State Prison. 1941 01:33:00,408 --> 01:33:03,369 In this session of five days in particular, 1942 01:33:03,453 --> 01:33:06,956 he was in a wire cage and was in shackles. 1943 01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:08,541 His wrists and legs were chained. 1944 01:33:08,625 --> 01:33:12,504 So what they suggested Their results were, 1945 01:33:12,587 --> 01:33:14,714 to begin with, hypomanic symptoms 1946 01:33:14,798 --> 01:33:17,801 like elevated mood, irritability, that kind of thing. 1947 01:33:17,884 --> 01:33:22,180 A manic episode sometimes associated with bipolar disorder. 1948 01:33:22,263 --> 01:33:27,060 Distraction, euphoria, grandiosity, irritability. 1949 01:33:27,143 --> 01:33:29,854 Yes, my therapist told me that 1950 01:33:29,938 --> 01:33:32,023 when I described my dad, 1951 01:33:32,107 --> 01:33:34,359 She said: "Your descriptions 1952 01:33:34,442 --> 01:33:38,321 a little match the descriptions of people with hypomania". 1953 01:33:38,404 --> 01:33:42,242 And I looked it up on the Internet, and I noticed that as a child. 1954 01:33:42,325 --> 01:33:46,162 I said, "Wow, my dad is so happy for something so small." 1955 01:33:46,663 --> 01:33:48,623 And I thought that was kind of cool. 1956 01:33:48,706 --> 01:33:51,000 -[Dr. Schug] Yes. -He seemed charming. Genuine. 1957 01:33:51,084 --> 01:33:52,502 He has this sparkle in his eyes, 1958 01:33:52,585 --> 01:33:55,505 But other times he's so irritable. 1959 01:33:55,588 --> 01:33:57,465 They are like two faces of the same coin, right? 1960 01:33:57,549 --> 01:34:00,343 -It can be an asset and a liability, right? -[Sophia] True. 1961 01:34:01,094 --> 01:34:02,846 Well, with your grandfather, 1962 01:34:02,929 --> 01:34:06,266 he reported certain mental disorganization, 1963 01:34:06,349 --> 01:34:10,645 certain strange thoughts and persecutory delirium. 1964 01:34:10,728 --> 01:34:13,481 The idea that people I was going for him, right? 1965 01:34:13,565 --> 01:34:18,153 So your results They talked about a certain vulnerability 1966 01:34:18,236 --> 01:34:20,613 towards psychotic illness or psychotic break, 1967 01:34:20,697 --> 01:34:22,407 that is, a break with reality. 1968 01:34:23,199 --> 01:34:25,785 [Sophia] It makes sense that my grandfather was vulnerable to psychosis. 1969 01:34:25,869 --> 01:34:27,078 I think... 1970 01:34:27,370 --> 01:34:29,372 I mean, I have some ideas about... 1971 01:34:29,747 --> 01:34:31,749 when my dad had a psychotic break. 1972 01:34:31,833 --> 01:34:34,794 -[Dr. Schug] Good. -Or when my grandfather had them. 1973 01:34:34,878 --> 01:34:38,047 And then finally In terms of personality traits, 1974 01:34:38,131 --> 01:34:43,011 some psychopathic traits, antisocial, schizoid and narcissistic 1975 01:34:43,094 --> 01:34:46,222 that are actually related with operating without a conscience. 1976 01:34:46,306 --> 01:34:50,393 Now, you on the other hand, You didn't have any of that. 1977 01:34:50,476 --> 01:34:52,979 It was very, we would call it ordinary, 1978 01:34:53,062 --> 01:34:55,732 in the sense that nothing came of it... 1979 01:34:55,815 --> 01:34:57,483 -There are no warning signs, okay? -Yeah. 1980 01:34:57,567 --> 01:35:00,695 [Dr. Schug] Then let's move on now to R-PAS, 1981 01:35:00,778 --> 01:35:03,656 the Evaluation System of Rorschach Performance. 1982 01:35:03,740 --> 01:35:06,034 Well, this is going to be, uh, 1983 01:35:06,117 --> 01:35:09,370 the Rorschach score your grandfather is on the left 1984 01:35:09,829 --> 01:35:10,914 and yours on the right. 1985 01:35:10,997 --> 01:35:15,001 Okay, first score. is giving answers 1986 01:35:15,084 --> 01:35:17,629 that do not fit the stains, 1987 01:35:18,213 --> 01:35:22,133 that do not fit the form how other people see them. 1988 01:35:22,217 --> 01:35:25,178 -Is it unique... -Yes. 1989 01:35:25,261 --> 01:35:27,388 -[Dr. Schug] ...against conventional? -Normal. 1990 01:35:27,472 --> 01:35:31,559 [Dr. Schug] Your grandfather's was elevated and so was yours. 1991 01:35:31,643 --> 01:35:33,436 In fact, yours was higher than yours. 1992 01:35:33,519 --> 01:35:35,271 [Sophia] I wouldn't have thought to get over it. 1993 01:35:35,355 --> 01:35:37,190 -You got over it. You won, you won. -[laughs] 1994 01:35:37,273 --> 01:35:40,360 I'm alone It doesn't make anyone crazy, right? 1995 01:35:40,443 --> 01:35:42,528 It's just the way the ones that leak information 1996 01:35:42,612 --> 01:35:43,905 that comes from outside. 1997 01:35:43,988 --> 01:35:45,907 I think about this quite a bit, Like, you know, 1998 01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:47,909 looking historically, For example, to artists, 1999 01:35:47,992 --> 01:35:50,411 the thin line between genius and madman, right? 2000 01:35:50,495 --> 01:35:53,248 An artist is able to see beyond the conventional, yes? 2001 01:35:53,331 --> 01:35:55,416 So there may be some of that too. 2002 01:35:55,500 --> 01:35:57,001 Well, as expected, 2003 01:35:57,085 --> 01:36:01,256 your aggressive content score It is quite high. 2004 01:36:01,339 --> 01:36:02,966 -[Sophia] Yes. -[Dr. Schug] Look at the stain 2005 01:36:03,049 --> 01:36:04,634 and see aggressive images 2006 01:36:04,717 --> 01:36:06,052 It could mean several things. 2007 01:36:06,135 --> 01:36:10,765 It could mean that a person It is identified with aggression and power. 2008 01:36:10,848 --> 01:36:15,395 It could mean that they are especially cautious about it. 2009 01:36:15,478 --> 01:36:16,854 That is to say, they are suspicious of it. 2010 01:36:16,938 --> 01:36:18,690 -[Sophia] Yes. -[Dr. Schug] Or they identify themselves, 2011 01:36:18,773 --> 01:36:20,483 perhaps, as victims of it, right? 2012 01:36:20,566 --> 01:36:22,652 So not necessarily It means you are aggressive. 2013 01:36:22,735 --> 01:36:24,320 -He is the perpetrator. -[Dr. Schug] Yes, yes, yes. 2014 01:36:24,404 --> 01:36:27,740 And you, on the other hand, You were right in the middle. 2015 01:36:27,824 --> 01:36:29,867 Their answers were very different from yours. 2016 01:36:29,951 --> 01:36:33,162 And I remember that your answers they tended to be 2017 01:36:33,246 --> 01:36:38,084 more casual and fanciful and somewhat creative. 2018 01:36:38,167 --> 01:36:42,714 At the very least, they were not worrying Not scary or anything like that. 2019 01:36:42,797 --> 01:36:45,049 But one did catch my attention. 2020 01:36:45,133 --> 01:36:47,260 Which were almost identical in both. 2021 01:36:47,343 --> 01:36:51,097 On one of the cards, you pointed to a man with a mustache. 2022 01:36:51,180 --> 01:36:54,475 And on that same card... 2023 01:36:54,559 --> 01:36:56,477 your grandfather said who looked like a hippie 2024 01:36:56,561 --> 01:36:58,896 with mustache and dark glasses. 2025 01:36:58,980 --> 01:37:02,775 The second part of these answers, and I think also very revealing. 2026 01:37:03,359 --> 01:37:05,445 "He looks like a hippie with mustache and dark glasses 2027 01:37:05,528 --> 01:37:07,530 "with the Eiffel Tower above his head 2028 01:37:07,613 --> 01:37:09,657 and there are two caterpillars next to it." 2029 01:37:09,741 --> 01:37:12,535 -So he diverted a little to another place. -Uh-huh. 2030 01:37:12,618 --> 01:37:15,371 [Dr. Schug] You, on the other hand: "A strange creature, man with a mustache. 2031 01:37:15,455 --> 01:37:16,581 "The eyes, the mustache. 2032 01:37:16,664 --> 01:37:19,876 "I see the eyebrows a little like what you can see in a mask, 2033 01:37:19,959 --> 01:37:22,003 "and I don't know, I have been to Japan or Indonesia 2034 01:37:22,086 --> 01:37:24,881 and they have these crazy cultural masks. That could be it." 2035 01:37:24,964 --> 01:37:28,885 TRUE? So you expressed it in a very normative context 2036 01:37:28,968 --> 01:37:31,220 and he simply He went somewhere else with it. 2037 01:37:31,304 --> 01:37:33,431 And there's another piece of the story 2038 01:37:33,514 --> 01:37:35,391 which kinda cements this even more. 2039 01:37:35,475 --> 01:37:38,269 We can see, uh, how popular. 2040 01:37:38,353 --> 01:37:42,231 The higher the score, it is more likely that a person 2041 01:37:42,315 --> 01:37:46,110 see conventional images on the cards. 2042 01:37:46,194 --> 01:37:48,780 Your grandfather was below average. 2043 01:37:48,863 --> 01:37:52,075 You on the other hand, You were well above average. 2044 01:37:52,158 --> 01:37:55,453 You do not have symptoms thought disorder, 2045 01:37:55,536 --> 01:37:59,457 and you are able to see the world in a conventional way. 2046 01:37:59,540 --> 01:38:01,667 -Uh-huh. Yes. -[Dr. Schug] Not him. 2047 01:38:01,751 --> 01:38:05,046 So if you came here worried that Dr. Schug told you 2048 01:38:05,129 --> 01:38:06,881 You're just like Charles Mason, right? 2049 01:38:06,964 --> 01:38:10,301 You are not. These are some In the ways you're not, okay? 2050 01:38:10,385 --> 01:38:13,262 I also wanted to address a little the fact 2051 01:38:13,346 --> 01:38:15,973 that I have never met a monster. 2052 01:38:17,850 --> 01:38:19,894 I have talked to people who have done abominable things, 2053 01:38:19,977 --> 01:38:21,479 but I never met a monster. 2054 01:38:21,562 --> 01:38:23,731 I don't think your grandfather was a monster. 2055 01:38:23,815 --> 01:38:27,902 You know, I think... It was complex, right? 2056 01:38:28,945 --> 01:38:31,114 ♪♪ 2057 01:38:36,327 --> 01:38:38,371 [motorcycle speeding] 2058 01:38:40,915 --> 01:38:44,168 [Sophia] I know that people They will always view me with skepticism 2059 01:38:44,252 --> 01:38:48,339 because I am a descendant of the criminal most notable in the United States. 2060 01:38:48,423 --> 01:38:49,590 ♪♪ 2061 01:38:51,300 --> 01:38:54,178 And I think that's the part which my father can't deal with. 2062 01:38:55,179 --> 01:38:57,723 [Daniel and Sophia girl shouting and laughing] 2063 01:38:59,392 --> 01:39:03,104 [voice broken] Finding out that his father It's Charles Manson it's a trauma 2064 01:39:03,187 --> 01:39:06,774 which threw him into a position mentally and emotionally vulnerable. 2065 01:39:10,945 --> 01:39:12,363 And he abandoned me. 2066 01:39:13,448 --> 01:39:14,740 Again. 2067 01:39:17,201 --> 01:39:18,995 Despite everything, 2068 01:39:19,454 --> 01:39:22,123 I know it took me as far as possible. 2069 01:39:23,833 --> 01:39:25,751 For everything he has done wrong... 2070 01:39:27,128 --> 01:39:29,422 I know you've done your best for doing the right thing. 2071 01:39:29,505 --> 01:39:30,673 [♪ somber music plays] 2072 01:39:30,756 --> 01:39:33,634 when you found out that Manson was your father, 2073 01:39:33,718 --> 01:39:37,388 did you have any doubts about who we are, 2074 01:39:37,472 --> 01:39:41,767 and if we are bad, if we are good, if we are guilty, if we are...? 2075 01:39:41,851 --> 01:39:45,563 You must have harbored bad feelings towards him. 2076 01:39:47,607 --> 01:39:50,401 It's hard for people who know 2077 01:39:50,485 --> 01:39:53,279 who are your parents even identify with someone 2078 01:39:53,362 --> 01:39:55,740 He doesn't know who his parents are. 2079 01:39:55,823 --> 01:40:00,161 It is a void that can never be filled. 2080 01:40:00,244 --> 01:40:01,579 It eats away at you. 2081 01:40:01,662 --> 01:40:02,997 It's... 2082 01:40:04,749 --> 01:40:07,710 It's a terrible thing for anyone have to go through that. 2083 01:40:09,587 --> 01:40:13,466 I didn't want to submit to you to this darkness... 2084 01:40:14,091 --> 01:40:17,094 to this terrible story. 2085 01:40:17,178 --> 01:40:21,140 So I waited with great regret for about two months, 2086 01:40:21,224 --> 01:40:25,645 uh... and I felt that actually the best I could do 2087 01:40:25,728 --> 01:40:27,063 was to be honest with you 2088 01:40:27,146 --> 01:40:30,483 because that's what you deserve. 2089 01:40:30,566 --> 01:40:33,361 That's what I deserved, but I never got it. 2090 01:40:34,320 --> 01:40:35,571 Come here. 2091 01:40:37,114 --> 01:40:38,658 [Sophia] You gave me a much better childhood 2092 01:40:38,741 --> 01:40:40,701 than the one your parents gave you. [sobs] 2093 01:40:41,661 --> 01:40:43,287 [Daniel] And in return, I gave it to myself 2094 01:40:43,371 --> 01:40:45,331 because I was able to give it to you. 2095 01:40:46,332 --> 01:40:50,127 All my life has been rewrite it through you. 2096 01:40:50,211 --> 01:40:52,129 ♪♪ 2097 01:40:53,256 --> 01:40:56,801 You were the only person who once held my hand 2098 01:40:57,301 --> 01:40:58,928 and he told me he loved me. 2099 01:41:00,388 --> 01:41:02,765 And my childhood would have been more like yours 2100 01:41:02,848 --> 01:41:04,433 with you out of it. 2101 01:41:05,351 --> 01:41:07,478 [Daniel] [voice broken] That's why I didn't let go. 2102 01:41:07,562 --> 01:41:09,897 I left my skin fighting. 2103 01:41:10,606 --> 01:41:12,400 -To stay with me? -[Daniel] To stay with you. 2104 01:41:16,946 --> 01:41:20,324 [Sophia] Both my dad and Charles they had to take last names 2105 01:41:20,408 --> 01:41:22,785 that were not of his blood. 2106 01:41:23,452 --> 01:41:28,541 My dad's last name, Arguelles, It is his stepfather's last name. 2107 01:41:29,083 --> 01:41:32,670 Charles Manson was born by Kathleen Maddox. 2108 01:41:34,130 --> 01:41:36,382 But since he was a bastard child, huh... 2109 01:41:37,925 --> 01:41:39,927 I needed a man's name. 2110 01:41:41,387 --> 01:41:44,890 And it turns out that Manson was the name the guy Kathleen was dating. 2111 01:41:48,269 --> 01:41:50,271 I feel like I never had a last name, 2112 01:41:50,354 --> 01:41:52,106 So it's a very exciting prospect. 2113 01:41:52,189 --> 01:41:54,609 having found a surname which I really enjoy. 2114 01:41:56,068 --> 01:41:57,862 Things went terribly wrong. 2115 01:41:57,945 --> 01:42:00,948 Well, the name Manson, and I just wanted to give 2116 01:42:01,032 --> 01:42:04,910 to my family lineage a second opportunity with this new name. 2117 01:42:04,994 --> 01:42:07,830 ♪♪ 2118 01:42:07,913 --> 01:42:09,206 Maddox. 2119 01:42:10,583 --> 01:42:13,544 Maddox. Sophia Maddox. 2120 01:42:14,295 --> 01:42:15,921 Hi, I'm Sophia Maddox. 2121 01:42:16,005 --> 01:42:17,256 I'm not going to take the camera 2122 01:42:17,340 --> 01:42:21,344 because I'm not allowed to record, so, cheers. 2123 01:42:21,427 --> 01:42:23,554 ♪♪ 2124 01:42:27,350 --> 01:42:28,893 I love my dad. 2125 01:42:32,021 --> 01:42:33,648 My door is always open. 2126 01:42:38,235 --> 01:42:41,489 All I can do is to continue working on myself, 2127 01:42:42,031 --> 01:42:44,033 setting limits 2128 01:42:44,116 --> 01:42:45,785 and just make it revolve around me 2129 01:42:45,868 --> 01:42:47,453 Instead of trying to fix him, 2130 01:42:47,536 --> 01:42:50,164 or try to fix my grandfather, I'm going to fix myself. 2131 01:42:50,665 --> 01:42:51,957 So... 2132 01:42:52,625 --> 01:42:55,544 [Allie] And I have to say that the vibe emanating from you now is very... 2133 01:42:55,628 --> 01:42:56,754 [Sophia laughs] 2134 01:42:56,837 --> 01:42:58,214 ...it's very uplifting. 2135 01:42:58,297 --> 01:43:00,633 [Sophia] [laughing] I know. 2136 01:43:00,716 --> 01:43:02,301 [Allie] Give yourself some credit. 2137 01:43:02,385 --> 01:43:04,345 ♪♪ 2138 01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:10,059 [Dr. Rose] Sophia, you are the first 2139 01:43:10,142 --> 01:43:11,644 in your lineage to be born free. 2140 01:43:13,562 --> 01:43:19,235 On top of that, I wonder if, Yours was to guide and not follow. 2141 01:43:22,029 --> 01:43:23,197 That's not... [laughs] 2142 01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:25,574 That's not the narrative the one I grew up with. [laughing] 2143 01:43:27,034 --> 01:43:30,204 [Dr. Rose] Well, uh, people who feel small 2144 01:43:30,287 --> 01:43:33,541 They will want to keep you small, by then... [laughing] 2145 01:43:33,624 --> 01:43:35,209 be able to justify his height. 2146 01:43:35,292 --> 01:43:36,669 [clicks tongue] 2147 01:43:36,752 --> 01:43:38,379 [Snyder] Somewhere out there, 2148 01:43:38,462 --> 01:43:40,464 there is at least one child that we know is yours. 2149 01:43:40,548 --> 01:43:42,425 Who is about 25 or 26 years old at this moment. 2150 01:43:42,508 --> 01:43:43,551 -Is that correct? -Yeah. 2151 01:43:43,634 --> 01:43:45,886 Look at that camera. What do you say to that boy? 2152 01:43:45,970 --> 01:43:47,972 you have to catch it On your own, boy. 2153 01:43:49,223 --> 01:43:52,393 The train is hard. The road is difficult. 2154 01:43:52,852 --> 01:43:54,645 -And do you want to hear something? -[Snyder] Yes. 2155 01:43:54,729 --> 01:43:56,147 He'll do it better than me. [laughs] 2156 01:43:56,230 --> 01:43:57,231 [Snyder] Will do what? 2157 01:43:57,314 --> 01:43:59,358 [Charles] Whatever I do. [laughs] 2158 01:43:59,442 --> 01:44:01,694 It will make it a little better. 2159 01:44:01,777 --> 01:44:03,279 Boys do it, don't they? 2160 01:44:03,362 --> 01:44:04,613 -[Snyder] Sometimes. -[Charles] Yes. 2161 01:44:04,697 --> 01:44:06,699 [laughs] That's what makes them so fun. 2162 01:44:07,450 --> 01:44:09,076 They always seem to get over it. 2163 01:44:10,745 --> 01:44:13,164 Oh, it's magical! 2164 01:44:14,039 --> 01:44:16,333 Woo! 2165 01:44:16,417 --> 01:44:19,211 [♪ uplifting music plays] 2166 01:44:23,549 --> 01:44:26,719 It's time to let go of all this... 2167 01:44:28,220 --> 01:44:30,055 and move on with my own life, 2168 01:44:30,681 --> 01:44:33,476 and do my thing outside the cameras 2169 01:44:33,559 --> 01:44:35,978 and apart from Charlie and apart from my dad. 2170 01:44:37,730 --> 01:44:39,523 Now I must find my own story... 2171 01:44:40,775 --> 01:44:41,984 apart from all this. 2172 01:44:42,067 --> 01:44:45,237 And... God, I have no idea... [chuckles] 2173 01:44:45,321 --> 01:44:47,239 where am I going to go or what am I going to do. 2174 01:44:47,323 --> 01:44:49,950 ♪♪ 2175 01:44:59,376 --> 01:45:01,670 [♪ "Lay It Down Slow" plays by Spiritualized] 2176 01:45:14,016 --> 01:45:17,019 ♪♪ 2177 01:45:33,786 --> 01:45:36,789 ♪♪ 2178 01:45:56,433 --> 01:45:58,519 [♪ song fades]